If it's not columnaris, then what happens to the suggestion of mouthrot? Another bacterial pathogen, or a secondary infection (the worst case), or am I and others just assuming that from the way the mouth looks without there being any absolutely obvious cotton-wool growths on the mouth?
Still Have Concerns
- Thread starter Kaidonni
- Start date
Kaidonni said:
"Columnaris" is sometimes used to cover an array of bacterial diseases that are really not related as such. But true columnaris is not what is shown in your fish. Mouthrot is another bacterial issue, as is fin rot, body fungus, and a host of others. There are internal as well as external bacterial pathogens.
I am not going to suggest treatments; as I think I've indicated previously, identifying the specific pathogen and then treating it effectively is very difficult. I simply caution you and others about jumping into conclusions with this or that "treatment," which can do more harm than good. Observation, clean water, and the right environment are often the best.
Byron.
I did recently start re-using a bucket for some of the dirty tank water. This bucket I used once last year when the one Clown Loach I had died, specifically for the water removed when I deeply vacuumed the gravel in the corner where that Clown Loach died (he had fin rot as a secondary infection). I never sterilised it or anything, I just left it to dry and ever since then the main bucket in which I rinse filter media, etc has just sat in that old bucket. I didn't use that old bucket for almost a year. But, as I remove more than 10 litres at a time, I've decided two buckets was better...I did stupidly dip the gravel vac into that old bucket last week - although that was the same day as I noticed the spot, so that wouldn't be the main cause - and I'm wondering if using that bucket in general has anything to do with my current problem? I've also used the jug I use to add new water to the tank to pour unused excess clean water into the old bucket, and have poured water from the fresh water bucket into the old bucket (so splash-back could have caused contamination...).
Of course, these Minnows and the Clown Loach I rehomed were all in the tank at that time, although I had dosed with eSHa 2000 the same week (if that offered any protection). But, as the main bucket always sits in the old bucket each week, and I touch the outside of the main bucket, if anything was going to be transferred, it would have probably happened well before now. Or not...just thinking out loud of all the possibilites. That, and columnaris-type bacteria are probably present anyway in every aquarium if I've read the articles correctly. I do dry out both buckets by wiping them with kitchen towel, and if I've had my hands in the old bucket and have handled the main bucket after that...another route of contamination.
Of course, these Minnows and the Clown Loach I rehomed were all in the tank at that time, although I had dosed with eSHa 2000 the same week (if that offered any protection). But, as the main bucket always sits in the old bucket each week, and I touch the outside of the main bucket, if anything was going to be transferred, it would have probably happened well before now. Or not...just thinking out loud of all the possibilites. That, and columnaris-type bacteria are probably present anyway in every aquarium if I've read the articles correctly. I do dry out both buckets by wiping them with kitchen towel, and if I've had my hands in the old bucket and have handled the main bucket after that...another route of contamination.
I've noticed a white tip on the lower part of the caudal fin, and possibly edged with faint black. I will observe this just in case it's entirely normal colouration I've never noticed before. However, my mind is thinking fin rot...if that's the case, I'm not sure what I can do for the little guy. Do I treat the whole tank and risk potential side-effects from medicine, or opt for euthanasia given that it means he has more than one issue going on (and therefore any treatment may be insufficient to solve the primary infection)?
EDIT: It's visible in that video I posted on the 3rd May, so...dunno what to make of it now. Don't think that's fin rot any longer, or I don't think it as much. I'm still not going to entirely discount the possibility, but still... Heh, good job I checked the video.
EDIT: It's visible in that video I posted on the 3rd May, so...dunno what to make of it now. Don't think that's fin rot any longer, or I don't think it as much. I'm still not going to entirely discount the possibility, but still... Heh, good job I checked the video.
Much to my annoyance, I siphoned a bit of flake food from last night during my weekly water change today. The Minnows hadn't eaten this large flake - in the past they have, at least some of the flakes that have gone to the gravel that is - and it'd been there all night. It does get me concerned...
I eliminated the snails I could today, it felt rather cruel but I can't take the risk in case of parasites. I also conducted a ~50% change (25 litres, but as the tank isn't quite 50 litres due to the filter, heater, airstone and plants, I'd say it may have been 52-54%). I normally do 30-40%, but this should hopefully help out on the nitrates issue to some extent, and what the male Minnow needs is a clean environment. The one female looked a little paler tonight, and it only took me 10-15 minutes to add the new water (partly temperature matched - the first 10 litres and last 5 litres were as warm if not slightly warmer than the water I removed, the middle 10 litres was cooler). I don't think they have temperature shock, though - highly active, although I could be stressing them and causing further problems doing it so fast. I don't pH match, but if they had pH shock, I'd probably know about it. I do have some Minnow fry - so I am concerned about how my approaches to changing large amounts of water affect them, as they are likely to be far more sensitive to fluctuations - but if I don't make sure the adults are well, they won't have much luck.
Somebody online suggested the possibility of Lymphocystis, of which I am aware I wouldn't really be able to do anything. Also, I've had this Minnow for 2 1/2 years at least, and for most of that time, I did have the heater on, pushing the water temperature up to 25-26C. It's now in a more suitable range of 21C-23/24C, but I have considered the possibility that the earlier stint with the higher temperatures may have accelerated the ageing of the Minnows, and if that's the case, his immune system will naturally weaken and something will probably get him eventually - regardless of how clean I keep the tank. An article I read on Columnaris pointed out that older fish can catch it in otherwise well maintained aquariums (not that this is Columnaris, but it applies to just about anything lurking in the background in any aquarium).
I eliminated the snails I could today, it felt rather cruel but I can't take the risk in case of parasites. I also conducted a ~50% change (25 litres, but as the tank isn't quite 50 litres due to the filter, heater, airstone and plants, I'd say it may have been 52-54%). I normally do 30-40%, but this should hopefully help out on the nitrates issue to some extent, and what the male Minnow needs is a clean environment. The one female looked a little paler tonight, and it only took me 10-15 minutes to add the new water (partly temperature matched - the first 10 litres and last 5 litres were as warm if not slightly warmer than the water I removed, the middle 10 litres was cooler). I don't think they have temperature shock, though - highly active, although I could be stressing them and causing further problems doing it so fast. I don't pH match, but if they had pH shock, I'd probably know about it. I do have some Minnow fry - so I am concerned about how my approaches to changing large amounts of water affect them, as they are likely to be far more sensitive to fluctuations - but if I don't make sure the adults are well, they won't have much luck.
Somebody online suggested the possibility of Lymphocystis, of which I am aware I wouldn't really be able to do anything. Also, I've had this Minnow for 2 1/2 years at least, and for most of that time, I did have the heater on, pushing the water temperature up to 25-26C. It's now in a more suitable range of 21C-23/24C, but I have considered the possibility that the earlier stint with the higher temperatures may have accelerated the ageing of the Minnows, and if that's the case, his immune system will naturally weaken and something will probably get him eventually - regardless of how clean I keep the tank. An article I read on Columnaris pointed out that older fish can catch it in otherwise well maintained aquariums (not that this is Columnaris, but it applies to just about anything lurking in the background in any aquarium).
I noticed one of the female Minnows right at the surface now and then last night and this morning (not all of the time, but she was going up to sip and staying there like that for at least a little while). It seems the temperature is higher than usual (24C), and I did notice this evening the other Minnows popping for a quick sip (but not staying right at the surface for a while like the other Minnow). Hopefully there's nothing much to that, but I shall keep observing - and it may turn out that it's only the one Minnow who has any real trouble with taking in oxygen, while the others are just doing it while the temperature is raised, or just because.
I can't do much about the temperature since I don't even have the heater plugged in...
I've attached a photo posted on another forum by a user who thinks my Minnow has mouthrot. I can't say I see the resemblance between the condition of the Minnow in the photo and mine. Anyone else have an opinion on the similarity?
I can't do much about the temperature since I don't even have the heater plugged in...
I've attached a photo posted on another forum by a user who thinks my Minnow has mouthrot. I can't say I see the resemblance between the condition of the Minnow in the photo and mine. Anyone else have an opinion on the similarity?
Attachments
As to the female Minnow...yeah, taking photos or video might not really work this time round. It's hard enough for me to see it...
I had a look this evening while the light was on, and noticed that, just behind her right gills, there was a bump/lump. It isn't like what the male Minnow has, no discolouration, it doesn't look external. She spent quite a bit of time at the top this morning while the light was off, but I didn't notice her doing that while the light was on when I checked her this evening (she was hiding amongst the plants). She was active yesterday evening when I fed the fish, and schooling with them - but the light was on. I thought she might have bloating, but she isn't pineconing; and if there is any bloating, it'd be downwards rather than outwards (possibly constipation or something else, but that doesn't quite explain the lump).
I had a look this evening while the light was on, and noticed that, just behind her right gills, there was a bump/lump. It isn't like what the male Minnow has, no discolouration, it doesn't look external. She spent quite a bit of time at the top this morning while the light was off, but I didn't notice her doing that while the light was on when I checked her this evening (she was hiding amongst the plants). She was active yesterday evening when I fed the fish, and schooling with them - but the light was on. I thought she might have bloating, but she isn't pineconing; and if there is any bloating, it'd be downwards rather than outwards (possibly constipation or something else, but that doesn't quite explain the lump).
That lump/bump on the female Minnow developed into a raised area headed with a white spot this morning, but by the time I got home from work, it had disappeared/burst. This didn't leave any unsightly wound, but there is a wisp of white stuff around where the spot was, possibly cottony, probably all that remains of the growth (it wasn't a fungus or cottony in the sense of Columnaris, I'm just using that word because it fits in this instance - it'd be some of whatever the white spot was). She's still spending a lot of time at the surface when the light goes off. I didn't feed tonight, I'm fasting them and feeding some pea tomorrow, especially in case I've noticed any bloating (not that I definitely have, I feed pea regularly anyway). Water change as usual on Sunday.
I have followed your posts, as I was interested to see if this white lump/spot developed as I have had similar on fish, and it has. I generally see these on the caudal peduncle, or on the dorsal ridge, though no idea why. The suggestion mentioned earlier that someone gave as to it being a tumour may be it, and as far as I know this is untreatable. Though it could be something else entirely.
Byron, question on water changes as concerns my present situation...
I have been advised on another forum that, after the cyst burst, three 50% water changes, each one day after the other, was the appropriate course of action to remove whatever came out of the cyst (an assumption that it was parasites). I conducted a 50% yesterday, and one is planned for today, but I got to thinking - the second change is only half as effective as the first, and the third only a quarter as effective. Would it be sound to say that I'd be getting diminishing returns by the third 50% change, and not doing as much or removing as much bacteria/free moving parasites from the gravel? I estimate it'd be equivalent to 87.5% changed, while just two would be 75% or thereabouts, and it just seems such a large change for such small benefit.
I have been advised on another forum that, after the cyst burst, three 50% water changes, each one day after the other, was the appropriate course of action to remove whatever came out of the cyst (an assumption that it was parasites). I conducted a 50% yesterday, and one is planned for today, but I got to thinking - the second change is only half as effective as the first, and the third only a quarter as effective. Would it be sound to say that I'd be getting diminishing returns by the third 50% change, and not doing as much or removing as much bacteria/free moving parasites from the gravel? I estimate it'd be equivalent to 87.5% changed, while just two would be 75% or thereabouts, and it just seems such a large change for such small benefit.
Kaidonni said:
This is logical mathematics. This is why I and many others are always advising larger-volume water changes once a week rather than more frequent by smaller-volume. So from the aspect of removing the "undesirable" a 50-60% change once a week is best overall.
However, as it pertains to your situation, I personally cannot see the direct benefit with respect to the cyst, so-called, as someone seems to have advised elsewhere. We don't know what this is, and to be honest, I would suggest it is not parasitic but some sort of growth or tumour. As I mentioned, I have seen this, often with cardinal tetra but a few other characins and on a rasbora. Now this may be something totally different; but your description of its progression is certainly the same. Though I am not aware of one of these bursting; they do sometimes darken and seem smaller, and I have seen them be completely coloured according to the red on the cardinal tetra for example. I don't do any treatment for this when I see it, as I was advised elsewhere that there is no treatment. I don't know. But I am very hesitatnt to start dumping medications in my tanks without being very certain the substance is what is needed and is safe. Not every medication is safe for all fish species, and I have wiped out entire species in a tank overnight with the wrong medication, while other species were healed and survived. So one has to be cautious.
Having said all that, whenever any issue is present on fish, there is almost no case where more frequent water changes do not benefit. My first course of action when I detect something amiss is to do a major water change, and every time I have seen improvement in the fish, regardless of what the issue turns out to be. Provided your parameters between tap and tank water are reasonably close, this cannot be detrimental.
Byron.
It's the cyst on the female that burst, which appears to be a separate situation to the male minnow with the spot above his eye. The female hangs at the surface when the light is off, and does seem more reclusive in lighting hours. I'll cap it at the second 50% change, as I still think the third is of diminished benefit. Waiting a couple of days seems more useful, then another 50% if things haven't improved much.
As to water quality out of the tap, I'd say pH is close to 7.1-7.2 after leaving the test tube sample standing for 15 minutes so CO2 could out-gas (not sure if enough time, though...). Tank is closer to 7.4-7.5. So, even a 100% change wouldn't change pH a dangerous amount.
As to water quality out of the tap, I'd say pH is close to 7.1-7.2 after leaving the test tube sample standing for 15 minutes so CO2 could out-gas (not sure if enough time, though...). Tank is closer to 7.4-7.5. So, even a 100% change wouldn't change pH a dangerous amount.
Kaidonni said:
Sorry, I did not realize there were two distinct white "spots." So to the cyst bursting...while frequent water changes may help, if the substrate is thoroughly vacuumed, this depends upon what actually burst out. Ich for example falls everywhere and some say you can vacuum up some of these, but of course you are not likely to get everything. So again, we still don't know what this was. But as I said, more frequent water changes will not hurt no matter what.
You need to out-gas CO2 much longer, overnight or 24 hours. This also works both ways as TTA advised me, but I needn't get into that. You can also briskly agitate some tap water for a few minutes and some of the CO2 will outgas. From the tank pH I would suspect the tap is close. And regardless, 7.1 to 7.5 (or the reverse) is not going to hurt any fish once a day, and you would not be changing all the volume anyway.
Byron.
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