What are you doing today?

[Myrkk]

I find the apex predator arguement interesting as we think of apex predators as things like sharks, bears, humans etc, but in reality the apex predators are the parasites, viruses etc. CV19 good case in point.
The thought that we are intelligent, are apex predators and have evolved above other species so have the right to do whatever we want doesn’t sit comfortably with me either. Surely if we are intelligent then we can see that everything has its place and we would try to co-exist. Having said that we can’t peacefully co-exist with each other never mind other species.
There’s a good reason human are seen as a self-extincting species!

 

[Oldspartan]

Old saw …. An apple a day keeps the doctor away.

 

[Oldspartan]

I find the apex predator arguement interesting as we think of apex predators as things like sharks, bears, humans etc, but in reality the apex predators are the parasites, viruses etc. CV19 good case in point.
The thought that we are intelligent, are apex predators and have evolved above other species so have the right to do whatever we want doesn’t sit comfortably with me either. Surely if we are intelligent then we can see that everything has its place and we would try to co-exist. Having said that we can’t peacefully co-exist with each other never mind other species.
There’s a good reason human are seen as a self-extincting species!

Your points are valid and well taken. The plague makes both our points. It certainly devastated us. At the same time we developed tools and offsets to combat it. Humans have done that time and again. We also extend those defenses to the animal kingdom if it suits us, usually based on benefit to us.

Perhaps right is not the correct word. Perhaps a better descriptive is ability. In either case the point is the same. We alter our surroundings to suit our needs. That is actually our hallmark. Unfortunately we do not use the ability with an eye to the future often enough.

Self extinction, perhaps, but I think far less likely than collapse of what we, or at least I, view as civilization. That would not be a first, but we rebounded.

My anthro professor had a great observation, probably not original:

We are not the fastest, the strongest, do not have claws, or the sharpest teeth. Our skin is soft and we pose a large target. Yet here we are, an anomaly saved only by our brain.

I think she was right.

Me, I say, with my right comes a great responsibility to be responsible in what I do and way consequence against action.

Sorry for the sermon but we have touched upon a subject that is dear to me.

 

[GaryE]

I can go out back for a walk and pass through lots of 'properties'. The skunks, groundhogs, foxes, squirrels and raccoons all have their turf. The insect world is a city out there. None of it could care less about me, except as an inconvenience and sometimes danger. Lord of the jungle or apex? I don't see it that way. I'm surrounded by species as equally evolved as I am. I'm no better or worse - just adapted to my version of the shared world.
If I went into a bear's den, I would prove I was poorly adapted.
If that bear threatens me, I'll try to do it in. If it doesn't, I won't. If a bobcat wanders though, it poses no threat to me or my lifestyle.
I'm part of a network, albeit as an invasive but long established species here. I modify my habitat. So does a beaver. I eat other animals. So does a bobcat. I farm. So do termites and ants. I think about the meaning of life? I have no idea what other species think about, but I know people who aren't that complex and don't worry about these things. The only thing that might make me superior to other animals is the simple fact that I keep aquariums.

The most successful, and I'd argue dominant life form on our planet are bacteria. We live in the Age of Bacteria, and some would say we're here as ecosystems for them.

 

[Myrkk]

Totally get it OldSpartan, I’m not educated in anthropology so my views are just those of an observer, someone who lives in this world and has worked with animals my entire life and people as an adjunct to that.
Your comment about we do not use our ability with an eye to the future often enough is a very good point that I often think about in relation to our governments. Too many have only a view on their elected term without thinking about how things will be afterwards. This shapes us all, in our interactions with each other and the world and not always in a good way. A good dose of common sense without red tape would be a refreshing change.
I used to laugh at Sandra Bullock in Miss Congeniality with her “world peace” statement, but as I get older, the more I would love that to come to pass, not just amongst ourselves but also in relation to our interactions with the natural world.

If you take things back to their natural origin, as a species our role is to survive and procreate. The same as any other animal.

 

[Oldspartan]

I can go out back for a walk and pass through lots of 'properties'. The skunks, groundhogs, foxes, squirrels and raccoons all have their turf. The insect world is a city out there. None of it could care less about me, except as an inconvenience and sometimes danger. Lord of the jungle or apex? I don't see it that way. I'm surrounded by species as equally evolved as I am. I'm no better or worse - just adapted to my version of the shared world.
If I went into a bear's den, I would prove I was poorly adapted.
If that bear threatens me, I'll try to do it in. If it doesn't, I won't. If a bobcat wanders though, it poses no threat to me or my lifestyle.
I'm part of a network, albeit as an invasive but long established species here. I modify my habitat. So does a beaver. I eat other animals. So does a bobcat. I farm. So do termites and ants. I think about the meaning of life? I have no idea what other species think about, but I know people who aren't that complex and don't worry about these things. The only thing that might make me superior to other animals is the simple fact that I keep aquariums.

The most successful, and I'd argue dominant life form on our planet are bacteria. We live in the Age of Bacteria, and some would say we're here as ecosystems for them.

I do not disagree with you in the least at the foundational level.

The difference, and it is huge, is our ability to destroy or conserve with forethought on a grand scale. One member of our species at a given time holds the power of mass destruction. That is a singular power that makes us actual apex. Not to be confused with smart mind you.

I believe in the end our population and resource competion will be our temporary doom. That is Ann oxymoron because it embraces both pessimism and optimism.

 

[Oldspartan]

Totally get it OldSpartan, I’m not educated in anthropology so my views are just those of an observer, someone who lives in this world and has worked with animals my entire life and people as an adjunct to that.
Your comment about we do not use our ability with an eye to the future often enough is a very good point that I often think about in relation to our governments. Too many have only a view on their elected term without thinking about how things will be afterwards. This shapes us all, in our interactions with each other and the world and not always in a good way. A good dose of common sense without red tape would be a refreshing change.
I used to laugh at Sandra Bullock in Miss Congeniality with her “world peace” statement, but as I get older, the more I would love that to come to pass, not just amongst ourselves but also in relation to our interactions with the natural world.

If you take things back to their natural origin, as a species our role is to survive and procreate. The same as any other animal.

Our governments are replete with just plain people driven by impulses within the normal scheme of human drives. Almost always what drives a politician, or others with power, ends in some form of corruption at some level. There are no benevolent dictators.

I choose to ignore it all unless it infringes the boundaries of my little box. When that happens I act, sometimes overtly but more often covertly. I think we would all be better served with such an attitude.

 

[Oldspartan]

Note to Gary

You are correct. I would be ill advised to enter the bears den. If I did it would be with a weapon that tipped the scales

 

[Oldspartan]

Interesting philosophical discussion.

 

[Myrkk]

One member of our species at a given time holds the power of mass destruction. That is a singular power that makes us actual apex. Not to be confused with smart mind you.

Indeed.
And yet, the scorpions and the cockroaches and the (possibly) deep sea life forms will survive. What will take our place if that were to happen? We are, as always, expendable, and then the insects / bacteria / viruses, will inherit the earth.

 

[Oldspartan]

All very true but in essence of little value to uss.

We are expendable to all but ourselves, sometimes based on our cultural behaviors even that comes with questions.

The reality is that if we are not here there is no one to be remorsful. Those you mention are caring and even unknowing.

Just a somewhat fun exercise that if that arrives is meaningless to us. I note no other known species can engage in such a process. They will survive because of raw biology.

We are not in disagreement. You present the pessimist pov. I prefer to believe as in the past our technology will keep us a step ahead regardless of the effect on other life forms, the optimistic pov.

In such a case our survival disproves your position. If I am wrong nobody will know.

Advantage me

 

[WhistlingBadger]

Well, this discussion gets into some ground that is probably forbidden on the forum, but I'll pipe up anyway and take my chances. Since we have veered from game and predator management into the philosophical deep end, I would like to share a different point of view. I am very sick, and my brain is not hitting on all cylinders, and the rules of the forum seem to require a deliberate vagueness on the part of any theist viewpoints (for reasons I completely understand and uphold), but I'll do my best.

[Edited to remove a long, convoluted, covid-addled ramble and get to the point]

In contrast to the nihilism that is so fashionable these days, I find theism in general, and Christianity in particular, to be logically robust, spiritually profound, and morally sustainable. I am convinced we are not here by accident, and I believe we are here for purposes much bigger than mere survival and reproduction. Many of the questions being discussed in this thread are addressed to my satisfaction by the conviction that we do have a creator who actually does care about what happens to us, individually and collectively. We are spiritual beings, but also part of the physical world, which makes our existence something of a paradox. Still, despite our insistence on short-sighted self-interest, there is reason to hope that those who choose love and truth will ultimately be OK.

And to avoid causing our dear moderators any trouble, and to avoid undue strain on my overtaxed, sickly brain, I will leave it at that.

I will stop there, go outside, eat my oatmeal, and listen to the robins sing.

 

[WhistlingBadger]

Anyway, back on topic:
Today, I'm being sick.

 

[Alice B]

Indeed.
And yet, the scorpions and the cockroaches and the (possibly) deep sea life forms will survive. What will take our place if that were to happen? We are, as always, expendable, and then the insects / bacteria / viruses, will inherit the earth.

Have you seen the new Planet of the Apes movies? I caught War for the Planet of the Apes with my daughter and grandkids last week. Indeed a virus can reshape the world

 

[Alice B]

Yesterday after a long hot day cleaning a pond I researched the NIH and any other technical medical site I could find on B12 and anemia, food sources for B12, whether an injection would be a good idea. Nowhere did I find working in the heat depletes B12 but I am suspicious, last year was the 2nd hottest year in Texas history and although we knocked off at 1 pm, I was working in the heat half of May, a little in June and 3 weeks in July. And I got thrombocytopenia - low platelets - that only responded when I started consuming B12. Got all the up to 73K before it got hot again, down to 31K this week. I will be getting some clams and learning to cook them, they are the apex natural B12 source. Followed by chicken liver. I need a new chicken liver recipe, Chicken Express burned them yesterday and picking off breading isn't fun. I do have a defective Mthfr gene, btw. I'm also taking methyl folate with a lot of methyl B12 but food seems to work better