Interview With Dr. Timothy A. Hovanec

[gaz gun man]

I am not the only one getting bored of reading about Bactinettes, then.

Surely fishless cycling, with its 3 - 4 month wait creates ESTABLISHED bacteria, and not 'just' bacteria, like this stuff in a bottle?

 

[OohFeeshy]

I dont understand what availability has to do with it effectiveness?

Urm... If you can't get it, you can't use it?

You shouldnt be adding fish at the same time, you should be following the same principles of fishless cycling and making sure that your levels are ok.

If that's the case, this again makes me wonder why bother? Presuming here you mean that people should buy this and ammonia, adding ammonia, testing the water for a week or so, then it surely misses the point completely? In that case, you've spent yet more money on a product to do something that you're doing the equivalent of anyway after you've bought it? To exactly the same, if not lesser, effect?

its just not supported as well as the others due it being a relatively new method.

It has nothing to do with it being 'new'. It isn't 'new'. The concept of adding bacteria has been around for aeons- before things like Cycle and Bactinettes came out, traditional advice was to add old filter media, gravel, decorations, plants, water and whatnot from an established tank to the new one. While Bactinettes is certainly more efficient, it's still building on old ideas.

 

[mark7616]

I couldn’t be arsed to read this whole thread I pretty much get the point from skim reading. You all have very valid point feeshy more than others what I will say is this though: Bactinettes if used and stored properly will work all the time I cycled a 150g tank with big messy fish, now here is the bad bit the first time I used it I got a nitrite spike and got straight on the phone to the rep some French guy who would not believe it was then after investigating we found out the product was not kept at the correct temp and there fore made the bacteria inert. They then gave me a further 6 pots and it worked wonders I have cycled 2 other tanks using it and do rate it but I get it for free other wise I would just clone my tanks. I only know this as I got very involved sorting out my problems most lfs don’t care how they store it therefore alot doesn’t work it also has a shelf life I also wonder how many people get home and think oh we will set up our tank tomorrow and leave the pot on the side. A fishless cycle for your first tank is always a good way to go as feeshy pointed out while that taking place you can revise stocking etc. Remember you only ever have to fully cycle one tank as long as you have a cycled tank you have seeded media meaning you no longer need to cycle other tanks.

 

[shelaghfishface]

im on the side of, if you dont go thru the whole learning process, you cant learn how its done and whats involved, i have never done a fishless cycle but always used ( apart from my very first tank when i knew no better) mature media from one of my other tanks, but then i have no idea what a fishless cycle involves and feel like i have missed out on that,i feel that fishkeeping is a hobby where if you are going to start chucking in stuff out of a bottle then theres not a lot of point in it, that may be the right thing for "fish havers" rather than "fish keepers",im in no way experienced to have an opinion on either F`LESS CYCLING OR BACTINETTES but i know what i like and thats the whole process of learning,

i have a lot of respect for people who go thru a fishless cycle, the other way kinda feels like cheating which i spose using mature media is to an extent, but then its the method that took me ages to learn, and im sticking to it

 

[JenCliBee]

i think Axleuk ur missing the piont ppl are trying 2 make!!!! yes it may well have worked for u but wot about if 10 ppl get it on ur recommendations and it dont work for them and they are new 2 the hobby if things go belly up it's the fish that suffer as these ppl wont no how 2 rectify there mistakes as u have told them that this will work so they havent read or learnt about the nitrogen cycle and possible signs of fish problems because again u have told them that it will be safe straight for fish.

fishkeeping is a hobby not just a fad so all learning is imperitive 2 gain experience so as ur fishless cycling it gives that time 2 do just this


jen

 

[andywg]

Can no one else see the irony here?

The OP has posted an interview with Dr Hovanec as some sort of support for Bactinettes when it was Dr Hovanec's work that shows that Bactinettes will not properly cycle an aquarium.

Dr Hovanec's work has indicated that the nitrite oxidising bacteria are probably not Nitrobacter spp but rather Nitrospira spp (hence the name of Bio-Spira) [1]. Bactinettes contains Nitrobacter spp for nitrite oxidisation. At best Bactinettes can be a stop gap to introduce Nitrosomonas spp to deal with ammonia and enough Nitrobacter spp to deal with a nitrite emergency but it will never fully cycle the tank as it does not contain the right sort of bacteria.


[1] Later research has indicated that Nitrobacter spp seem to be prevalent in high nitrite environments, such as waste water treatment while Nitrospira spp seem to prevail in low nitrite conditions, such as a fish tank.

 

[NewbieInTheHouse]

Im surprised the poster of this topic has been allowed to go through the boards in his cocky/rude manner and as a newbie Bang on about this stuff. seems like every other thread is about this and ive read here for a while.Then to alike himself to Fox Moulder? <<LMAO The reality is in reading all his threads he has used this product and his fish are dying ? (Oh Yea thats the fish shops fault!!) What about all the newbies who read the threads promoting this product and dont use it properly.. If suppliers do not store it properly whats the chances of the people who buy it from them storing it properly.Seems like a crusade but for what? Ive just got myself a tank and will be doing things the proper and tested way.

 

[tenohfive]

Can no one else see the irony here?

The OP has posted an interview with Dr Hovanec as some sort of support for Bactinettes when it was Dr Hovanec's work that shows that Bactinettes will not properly cycle an aquarium.

I'll put my hands up. I've not actually read the interview. I immediately took issue with the OP recommending it for newbies and it appears that the ensueing discussion centred around that point.

 

[rabbut]

I've also only got partway through so far, and already have a few quotes from the interview to put to the OP as soon as the issues over the way he is recomending the product have died down. I will be back as soon as we are all back on topic. I've had my say on what I think, and I'm not the type of person to raise the same points repeatedly, especially since the OP hasn't made comment since my last relpy.

All the best
Rabbut

 

[Axleuk]

Hi Guys,

Sorry i have not been able to reply back to anyone until now, but i was out and about although i did manage to read some of the posts while waiting for the plane to land.

Unfortunatly i dont think i will be able to respond directly to everyone but i will try my best.

Can i also say at this time that i did not make this post as a crusade for Bactinette. I posted the article because after reading it i felt it contained a lot of interesting information regarding real nitrifying bacteria and i wanted to share it with everyone. I only likened Bactinette to Bio Spira because i felt the products were similiar. It seems that people were posting comments based on the initial communication with myself and tenohfive, rather than commenting on the article itself. Its fine, i dont mind a discussion about the comparisons between methods but please remember it was not my initial intention but i found myself having to defend myself. I am not the best person with words i'll admit but i do try my best to get my point across and best as i can.

Anyways, i will try my best to answer some of your posts where i left off.

The issue is because you've had one instance of success, you're essentially saying it fishless cycling is unnecessary and is no longer the best option for people who are new to the hobby to use - which seems a rash conclusion to draw.

I am not saying that fishless cycling is not nessecary, i am merely opening peoples eyes to an alternative method that they may not have been aware of until recently. If people read the information on all the options available to them they can then make a choice based on their personal preference.

What I would ask is that you don't advertise this product as the most viable solution because you aren't in a position to state that it is

I am not advertising the product as the most viable solution, i am offering the alternative as an option. I agree i am not in a position to state this and if i have, i should not have and it was a mistake on my part.

I'm willing to go through all the options with anyone, but the consensus (as you stated) on this forum is that fishless cycling continues to be the safest and most reliable option.

But what if someone finds themselves in a position where they cannot wait or chose not to wait? What if fishless cycling is not an option to them? Surely i can recommend real nitrifying bacteria to them to consider?

I don't think it would be fare to include him in a thread though, basically opposing a load of members whom are heating his products marketing proposal from a forum Newbie, whom claims to have nothing to do with the product, but that most on here will recon they do.... Reason, I haven't seen you post anything that doesn't involve one of these two products for quite a while, asside from one thread of mostly general chit-chat in the Emergency section.

I have stated before and i will state it again, i have nothing to do with Bactinette, i am an IT Consultant working for a large IT company based here locally in Bridgend and i have done so for the past 3.5 yrs. You have clearly not read all my posts otherwise you will have seen that i have tried to be as helpful as i possible can where i can, rightly or wrongly i have offered my opinion. Yes, i am guilty of bringing up Bactinette quite a lot, and i am sure it has got on peoples nerves. I will appologise for that and wll try to calm it down a bit, but i am only trying to offer some assistance to others. If i have to use the 'B' word again, i will and do it privately. To speak on other members behalf and say that most believe i have an affiliation with the product is unfounded, but i can understand why some members might and i can assure you i dont.

They are with a 30-50% success rate, which TBH isn't great confused.gif Fishless cycling bosts a 95-99% success rate without modifications, and mature media is a cheaper short-cut, more readily available bosting a 75-80% success rate.

Where are you sourcing your figures from, i would be interested in reading them.

Like the two products that you appear to work for as a marketing executive, mature media can also be used to speed-up a fishless cycle.

I wish i was a marketing exec, i'm sure the pay would be a damn site better than what i am currently on. I agree that mature media can also be used to speed up the process, but it is not available to all of us, so we turn to other options of speeding up the process if that the route we wish to take.

I am not the only one getting bored of reading about Bactinettes, then.

It appears not. I appologise if my apparent crusade has upset members and have already stated that i will try my best to calm it down.

QUOTE (Axleuk @ Aug 4 2008, 05:18 PM) *
I dont understand what availability has to do with it effectiveness?


Urm... If you can't get it, you can't use it?

If you can get it, you have the option of using it.

QUOTE
You shouldnt be adding fish at the same time, you should be following the same principles of fishless cycling and making sure that your levels are ok.


If that's the case, this again makes me wonder why bother? Presuming here you mean that people should buy this and ammonia, adding ammonia, testing the water for a week or so, then it surely misses the point completely? In that case, you've spent yet more money on a product to do something that you're doing the equivalent of anyway after you've bought it? To exactly the same, if not lesser, effect?

By bothering you can reduce the time it takes to cycle your tank. You can, by the products own claims, add fish right away, however i personally waited until my levels were safe which only took a short while. This was my choice.

It has nothing to do with it being 'new'. It isn't 'new'. The concept of adding bacteria has been around for aeons- before things like Cycle and Bactinettes came out, traditional advice was to add old filter media, gravel, decorations, plants, water and whatnot from an established tank to the new one. While Bactinettes is certainly more efficient, it's still building on old ideas.

Perhaps i could have worded my statement a bit better. The use of commercial live nitrifying bacteria is relatively new, perhaps that would have been a better way of putting it. I appologise.

@Mark7616

I appreciate you mentioning your experience. No-one has any control of how people handle the product once they leave a store. I was informed by my lfs that SOL provide each store is provided with a refridgeration unit and the product is delivered in a refridgerated container. We have to trust that the product was handled correctly and each stage of the journey in the same way we have to trust a waiter has not spat in our food before brining it to our table. As long as people follow the products guidelines there should not be any issues, however, as with any product there will be times when faults occur. There are also problems with any cycling method, you only have to read this forum to hear about them.

if you dont go thru the whole learning process, you cant learn how its done and whats involved

You can learn how its done and whats involved without going through the process, its just that some people are more comfortable if they actually do it.

i have a lot of respect for people who go thru a fishless cycle, the other way kinda feels like cheating smile.gif which i spose using mature media is to an extent, but then its the method that took me ages to learn, and im sticking to it

In my eyes, using mature media and using Bactinette are very similiar in the fact they are both introducing bacteria to aid the cycling process. In my case i didnt have access to mature media and was all set to do a fishless cycle when i spotted Bactinette. They both achieve the same end result when used correctly.

i think Axleuk ur missing the piont ppl are trying 2 make!!!! yes it may well have worked for u but wot about if 10 ppl get it on ur recommendations and it dont work for them and they are new 2 the hobby if things go belly up it's the fish that suffer as these ppl wont no how 2 rectify there mistakes as u have told them that this will work so they havent read or learnt about the nitrogen cycle and possible signs of fish problems because again u have told them that it will be safe straight for fish.

The same could be said for fishless cycling or any other method really, If people want to jump in without reading up first, there is nothing we can do about that, however if people come to this forum seeking advice in the first place and something goes wrong, or they think something has gone wrong, then the chances are they will return to seek further assistance. We just have to accept that sometimes things are beyond our control.


The OP has posted an interview with Dr Hovanec as some sort of support for Bactinettes when it was Dr Hovanec's work that shows that Bactinettes will not properly cycle an aquarium.

Dr Hovanec's work has indicated that the nitrite oxidising bacteria are probably not Nitrobacter spp but rather Nitrospira spp (hence the name of Bio-Spira) [1]. Bactinettes contains Nitrobacter spp for nitrite oxidisation. At best Bactinettes can be a stop gap to introduce Nitrosomonas spp to deal with ammonia and enough Nitrobacter spp to deal with a nitrite emergency but it will never fully cycle the tank as it does not contain the right sort of bacteria.


[1] Later research has indicated that Nitrobacter spp seem to be prevalent in high nitrite environments, such as waste water treatment while Nitrospira spp seem to prevail in low nitrite conditions, such as a fish tank

Hi Andywg,

I respect your obvious understanding of both Nitrobactor spp and Nitrospira spp. You have a superior understanding on the subject than i do so i wont pretend to know something that i dont.
I did do a little search on Google to see if i could find any information to familiarise myself with the subject. I came across this paper entitled: Competition Between Nitrospira spp.
and Nitrobacter spp. in Nitrite-Oxidizing Bioreactors.

I did read the abstract and whilst i did find it slightly baffling i came to the conclusion that Bio Spira and Bactinette are essentially trying to do the same thing however Bio Spira contains a more appropriate bacteria for the job in hand than Bactinette ie: nitrospira spp. Am i close?

You mention that Bactinette will never fully cycle a tank. Would you mind explaing why? Please dont think i am trying to challenge your intellect, this is not the case, i just want to get a better understanding thats all.

This is the paper i was trying to decypher: Competition Between Nitrospira spp and Nitrobacter spp in Nitrite-Oxidizing Bioreactors

Im surprised the poster of this topic has been allowed to go through the boards in his cocky/rude manner and as a newbie Bang on about this stuff. seems like every other thread is about this and ive read here for a while.Then to alike himself to Fox Moulder? <<LMAO The reality is in reading all his threads he has used this product and his fish are dying ? (Oh Yea thats the fish shops fault!!) What about all the newbies who read the threads promoting this product and dont use it properly.. If suppliers do not store it properly whats the chances of the people who buy it from them storing it properly.Seems like a crusade but for what? Ive just got myself a tank and will be doing things the proper and tested way.

Why should i not be allowed to voice my opinions? I'm sorry you have found my manner to be cocky and rude. Only on one occasion has anyone brought to my attention that a post may have been a little harsh in which case i promptly Pm'd the party concerned and explained and offered an appology that was accepted. Yes, i like to inject a little bit of humour from time to time, thats just me i'm affraid, sorry to dont share my sense of playfulness. As far as being a 'newbie' i would like to think that i am being helpful to at least some people on here. My opinions may not be to everyones taste but i do try to explain myself as best as possible, even though i find it hard sometimes.

The reality is in reading all his threads he has used this product and his fish are dying ? (Oh Yea thats the fish shops fault!!)

I have been open about my fish and having spoken with the lfs this morning they believe the problem may have been related to a combination of my tanks sudden rise in temperature and the speed at which my water was flowing (kinda fast). The admitted that these were possibilities and not conclusive. They tested my water and it was fine. So please do not infer that my fish died because i used Bactinette, my other fish are all doing fine but thanks for your concern.

[quote[What about all the newbies who read the threads promoting this product and dont use it properly.. If suppliers do not store it properly whats the chances of the people who buy it from them storing it properly.Seems like a crusade but for what? Ive just got myself a tank and will be doing things the proper and tested way.[/b]

I'm sorry but i cannot be held responsible if people chose to ignore the instructions that are clearly labeled on the product. If the stores do not store their product correctly thats an issue for the stores. They have a duty of care to the customer so we have to assume they do store them correctly.
I am happy you are choosing to cycle your tank using a tried and tested method and i am sure you will no problems. Perhaps your next post will be a litte more constructive instead of using your first one to flame someone.

I'll put my hands up. I've not actually read the interview. I immediately took issue with the OP recommending it for newbies and it appears that the ensueing discussion centred around that point.
I'm sorry you took issue with my recommendation and as i stated previously i will try and curb my enthusiasm a little bit. I didnt come here to upset people. I would rather work with you guys and glas rather than work against you.

I've also only got partway through so far, and already have a few quotes from the interview to put to the OP as soon as the issues over the way he is recomending the product have died down. I will be back as soon as we are all back on topic. I've had my say on what I think, and I'm not the type of person to raise the same points repeatedly, especially since the OP hasn't made comment since my last relpy.

All the best
Rabbut

Hi Rabbut,

Sorry i have taken so long to ge this far, i have been at it for hours but i wanted to address as many issues as i could. I didnt want people to accuse me of running away from the thread.

I hope you have had chance to read the article and am happy to discuss it with everyone. I know the thread has kind of gone off on a tangent and i am hoping we can bring it back on track.

I would also like to take this opportunity to appologise to those that feel i have been annoying in my Bactinette crusade. I didnt mean to be a pest and believe it or not, i am open minded, although a bit stubborn sometimes.

Anyways... moving on i hope we can discuss the interview.


P.S. I am sorry for the sloppy layout but when i went to preview the document it said i have used too many of the quote tags.(i wonder why? lol)

 

[Corleone]

I did read the abstract and whilst i did find it slightly baffling i came to the conclusion that Bio Spira and Bactinette are essentially trying to do the same thing however Bio Spira contains a more appropriate bacteria for the job in hand than Bactinette ie: nitrospira spp. Am i close?

You mention that Bactinette will never fully cycle a tank. Would you mind explaing why? Please dont think i am trying to challenge your intellect, this is not the case, i just want to get a better understanding thats all.

You're spot on with the Bio-Spira vs. Bactinette bit.

As for the other bit, I'll reference this post:

The reason why one finds Nitrospira and not Nitrobacter in these systems has to do with the nitrite concentrations. As Regan et al 2002 describes starting on page 79, a low-nitrite environment selects for Nitrospira while a high nitrite environment will select for Nitrobacter. Optimum growth for Nitrospira is a nitrite concentration around 0.14 mg/L NO2-N. For Nitrobacter the optimal nitrite concentration for grow is around 14 mg/l NO2-N which is a toxic concentration for most freshwater fishes.

And farther down the thread a clarification:

I know it sounds like I am splitting hairs but if you add Nitrobacter it will not die (therefore it survives) but it is not 'working' so not growing and replicating (thriving) and so after a while the numbers of nitrobacter cells are too low to measure.

What that basically suggests is that if Bactinettes only does half the job, nitrites will be slow in correcting, and in either that case or if it fully worked, you'd have a period where your NOB wouldn't have much growth.

Also worth noting that from the optimal grown levels, I'd expect a fishless cycle to favor Nitrobacter out of the nitrite spike. Maybe this is why that last little bit of nitrite can be so stubborn - Nitrobacter aren't growing further and Nitrospira haven't grown enough yet.

 

[Axleuk]

What that basically suggests is that if Bactinettes only does half the job, nitrites will be slow in correcting, and in either that case or if it fully worked, you'd have a period where your NOB wouldn't have much growth.

Also worth noting that from the optimal grown levels, I'd expect a fishless cycle to favor Nitrospira out of the nitrite spike. Maybe this is why that last little bit of nitrite can be so stubborn - Nitrobacter aren't growing further and Nitrospira haven't grown enough yet.

Ok, i think it is all starting to make more sense now from reading the scientific discussion. Thanks Corleone for pasting the links and posting the quotes.

I am understanding more and more from reading as we go along from a logical point of view. Its difficult when you get baffled with science but the explanations have made it clearer.

So, if you compare both Bio Spira and Bactinette, it appears that Bio Spira will do the job more effectively as was confirmed above.

So, where does Bactinette lie in the grand scheme of things. In my internet travels and popping in to various other forums Bactinette has a great success rate and i have seen very few instances where it blatently failed although i am aware that it has. It must be doing something right and i am keen to find out why it has worked rather than dismiss its claims and find out where it is best placed on the market.

 

[aaronnorth]

I'm with Axle on this one. although i do agree with some points made

Viability. You can never guarentee that it has been stored correctly throughout production and transport, which is certainly a problem if you're adding fish at the same time. It's all too easy for temperature fluctuation to occur, rendering the whole thing useless.

The producers of bactinettess (soll) provide it with the courier who's vehicle is refrigerated to the correct conditions, they also come in packs that keep them cool even if there is a short failure. I dont believe you can say this doesnt work until you have tried it. when biospira was launched i'm sure you would have your doubts, but now it is established everyone thinks it is good (and probobaly is) once bactinettess get strated, i am sure lots more people will turn to them with great success - especially in th UK

but relies totally on the miracle additive and chucks in all their fish without testing the water and then ends up with sick and dying fish

retailers selling the product should advise them to stock lightly and feed every other day to prevent massive amounts of ammonia build up and leading to this problem. Guides are available for this product with additional information.

They are with a 30-50% success rate

Where have you got that from? Is there proof anywhere?

If suppliers do not store it properly

Soll provide fridges to do this job

Pepole are probobaly going to start on me but i have used them twice with success.

 

[tenohfive]

Aaron, you're relying an awful lot on management in every LFS countrywide that stocks these products to train their staff properly, and then relying on the staff to do their jobs properly. I've got nothing against LFS staff but we all know that whilst some will do things properly, others won't.
As for retailers being told to give them the proper advice...again, I refer you to the point above.

I think these products should be encouraged amongst fishkeepers setting up a second, third, fourth or tenth tank - if only to see if they work. Judging from the experiences of people like Mark7616 and others I think its too hit or miss to be relyed upon to cycle a tank at the moment though. As such I feel its a product that should be marketed to people who know what they're doing, but marketing it as the wonder product to instantly cycle a tank is dangerous.

Incidentally people who clamour for proof - the whole point of these forums (and the thing that makes them imo the best place for researching aspects of fishkeeping) is that studies that are conducted in a lab, with a full list of statistics do not always reflect the success ratio in the home tank - especially with products like this which can very easily be damaged between production and adding to the tank. Its peoples experiences that I personally find most useful and if someone has used it in the home aquaria and tells me they get x% success ratio I trust them more than a research company working in controlled conditions

 

[raptorrex]

all this fuss about something, that most of us have no problem doing, Cycling a Tank. why do so many people seem in so much of a hurry, they cant wait 14-24 days for a fishless cycle? have we turned into people who have to buy something from a shop to do a very simple job?
as with any skill or interest, imo, you should only use short cuts, when you have mastered the long route. this is a basic precept of all training programs. you are taught how to do it properly, then after you have mastered that, you are let loose to experiment and form your own systems.

working on the premise of the OP, i seen no reason to cycle at all, and the reason? several years ago i had a tank split, i collected the substrate, and put the fish in a 20g tank with no filter, i did 50% daily water changes. i then purchased a tank, though this took several days, and put the substrate in added water and fish and finally places a freshly cleaned, in tap water, filter (this had been left dry for the days it took to get a tank). i then set the heater and thought the job was done. well it was, not one fish died, i had no spikes in the water readings, indeed most of the fish from then are still swimming happily in my tank. so putting fish, water and a dry and clean filter, in a new tank, all at once with no cycle worked form me, so the logic seems to me to be "you do not need to cycle".

as for the content of the copied interview, i thing andywig's comment speaks volumes!