Fishless Cycling

[BigTallV]

QUESTIONS:
(1) Since I'm now at 8.0ppm (a little over the ~5 to 6ppm was striving for), should I do a small water change to lower the ammonia reading or do I just wait it out for a day (or two)?
(2) I have a Python gravel tube (hooks up to faucet). Do I add water conditioner before, during or after water change?
(3) While tank is fishless cycling, can I put my arm into the tank to make adjustments to any equipment, etc., or will this be too risky?
(4) Why does the ammonia level off around 2.0ppm and stay there? Why are the bacteria not dropping the ammonia level at the same rate as the prior day, or at a more progressive amount?
(5) Should I not see any nitrite readings at this point? ** NitrIte has always been at 0ppm since start of tank. **

I'm going half out of my mind, the other half is thinking of going to the LFS and picking up a bunch of zebra danios and going the old-school route.

Any suggestions or intuition on the above? Your advice is much appreciated.

/BigTallV

1) What type of test kit do you have? Does it go higher than 8.0? If 8.0 is the highest level on the test kit, you could actually be higher than that. I would do enough of a water change to at least get the ammonia back comfortably on the chart so you can see any change that occurs.
2) You can add the dechlorinator at any time. I use a python too and generally squirt a little in about half way through refilling the tank and a little more after I have stopped the water. I don't measure mine (I use API Stress Coat), simply squirt it in. Unless you add an extreme amount (like a full bottle), you can't overdose (a thread a year or so ago where someone contacted a couple of the dechlorinator companies and they addressed that issue). I have never had any problem.
3) It is fine to put your arm in (wash and thoroughly rinse hand and arm first of course). On my 75 gallon, I added the plants about half way through the cycle and didn't have any problems.
4) I'm really not sure why this is the case. They should definitely take it completely to 0 and it should happen a little faster each day. You should also get a nitrite reading as soon as the ammonia starts getting processed. If you aren't seeing nitrite, then something else is happening to the ammonia. What type chemicals and water treatments are you using? If they say "removes ammonia" (may have to check the company website if the bottle isn't clear), then the chemicals are getting rid of the ammonia and it isn't being processed into nitrite. You really don't want to use any chemical that "removes ammonia".
5) See #4. One other explanation for no nitrite is that you have/had enough bacteria from the seed filter you received to process it. Are your nitrate levels going up? If not, then you haven't had any nitrite to process.

1) It's API's Master Test Kit. No, it' only goes to 8.0. And yah, I already thought that if it were to be higher than the top of the card/colour bars... ohhh boy.
2) I have "Big Al's" water conditioner (dechlorinator, aloe), similar to API's Stress Coat. But I've seen Stress Coat at the stores too, can get one of those instead. It's only $8 CDN.

4) No nitrites since starting the tank through until today, zippo, nada. Big Al's water conditioner doesn't say anything about removing ammonia. No other chemicals in use. I only used the conditioner when I first filled the tank.

5) No, Nitrate levels are constant basically (tap water has 5.0ppm in my area, so there are Nitrates to begin with, but none "building" via the nitrification cycle).

I'll do a change in the early AM after testing ammonia level again.

I'm perplexed why this is happening.

OH, the lid is a glass top, tight fitting, only a small area by the back edge where the hoses slip by. I do have a 14" bubble wall on a Rena 300 running nearly 3/4 to wide open. Is this enough oxygen? or must I have the lid up or opened somewhat?

 

[rdd1952]

I'm at a loss on this one. The would think the air is fine. Leaving the lid up wouldn't do anything. Oxygen exchange is at the surface so it doesn't matter whether the top is on or not. The disturbance is what causes oxygenization. I don't know what to tell you except that you might want to completely start over with a near 100% water change. As someone mentioned earlier, that can sometimes get things started. It's pretty obvious that nothing is happening right now since you haven't seen any nitrite or nitrate (other than what is in your tap water).

You may have already mentioned it and I missed it but what type media are you using? Sponge, ceramic rings, carbon, etc. I don't think that would make a difference unless something in your media is pulling the ammonia from the water.

 

[BigTallV]

I'm at a loss on this one. The would think the air is fine. Leaving the lid up wouldn't do anything. Oxygen exchange is at the surface so it doesn't matter whether the top is on or not. The disturbance is what causes oxygenization. I don't know what to tell you except that you might want to completely start over with a near 100% water change. As someone mentioned earlier, that can sometimes get things started. It's pretty obvious that nothing is happening right now since you haven't seen any nitrite or nitrate (other than what is in your tap water).

You may have already mentioned it and I missed it but what type media are you using? Sponge, ceramic rings, carbon, etc. I don't think that would make a difference unless something in your media is pulling the ammonia from the water.

Eheim Classic External Cannister (Model #2217) which has EhfiFix, EhfiSubStrat, coarse sponge filters (blue), fine sponge filter (white) and also charcoal sponge filter. Ehfifix is ceramic rings (mechanical), ehfisubstrat is some kind of pebbles/marbles that are for biological. http/www.eheim.com/filtermedia.htm

Yes, it's been 3 weeks of ammonia disappearing and settling at 2.0ppm. No nitrites or nitrates building at all - zippo. Or at least the NitrAtes didn't appear to be climbing, I only started doing the NitrAte reading 2 days ago. I did test my tap water however.

Would a pic of the tank help? Here's the water conditioner used: http/www.bigalscanada.com/baproducts/watertreat.htm Product label doesn't mention ammonia at all. Does mentione removal of chlorine, neutralize chloramine, aloe vera, and buffering of pH for freshwater. Says its for use in setting up fresh or saltwater aquariums. I've used it in my water changes on my 5.5G tank for 2 years without issue (including 'traditional' cycling method). I'll grab some API Stress Coat the next time I'm at the LFS or LPS.

Did my water reads this morning, ammonia still at/above 8ppm (as I didn't do my water change yet to correct having boosted it too much last night). NitrIte = 0ppm. NITRATE = 20ppm. Nitrates ARE in fact climbing. I only started reading NitrAte last 2 days as I didn't think it necessary if I'm at the beginning of the cycle. However, I have had this mature filter bag for around a week now in my new external cannister.

Maybe the "mature" filter I added from my friends tank did survive the outing in -2C weather last Sunday. Maybe it is processing the ammonia (thus the dropping readings), the NitrIte being produced is being eaten up by the bacteria keeping it at 0ppm producing the NitrAte building slowly?!? It was a sponge/bag from a fully mature tank.

The only piece I can't figure is why the ammonia stops at around 2.0ppm for last 2 days. Should I do a partial water change perhaps to get the ammonia down to within scope (below the 8ppm level) of the test kit's colour bars and watch for NitrAte continuing to build tomorrow?

 

[BigTallV]

Forgot to mention it, I also have API Ammo-Lock ammonia detoxifier. A single measured dose of this stuff can also bring down the ammonia level by 3.0ppm. In light of wanting to track the NitrAtes building above their present level, and by doing a partial water change having the effect of lowering both Nitrate and Ammonia... should I just dose the Ammo-Lock to lower my ammonia (presently at 8ppm due to my zeal in boosting it back up to ~5 to 6ppm) such that I can still observe the Nitrate from the existing level?

And no, I did NOT use Ammo-Lock on this tank at anytime, in case anyone was about to ask.

 

[rdd1952]

I would go ahead and do a water change to get the ammonia back on the chart so you can tell what it's doing. It does sound like you are maybe seeing some change in the nitrate. I guess it's possible that you have enough nitrite processing bacteria to handle the nitrite that is being produced so you aren't getting a nitrite reading. If the nitrate continues to climb, then something is definitely happening since the only way for th nitrate to rise is for ammonia to be processed completely.

As for the ammonia dropping to 2 and stopping, one possible solution is that the test kit could be faulty. Did your tap water test out at 0? If so, then that's no the answer.

EDIT: I think you posted the part about Ammo-Lock at the same time I posted this so I missed it. I wouldn't use the Ammo-Lock at all. Ammo-lock transfoms ammonia into it's non-toxic form called ammonium (the same thing happens when pH drops to around 6.0 as ammonia becomes non-toxic at low pH and increases in toxicity as pH rises meaning an ammonia reading of 1.5 at a pH of 8 is much more toxic that the same 1.5 reading in 6.5 pH water). Adding the Ammo-Lock shouldn't have any effect on the ammonia reading. It should just make the ammonia that's present safe for fish. Using it now (or later once the tank is cycled) is really not necessary.

One thing that the makers of the ammonia-detoxifying products fail to mention is that the ammonia is still transformed into nitrite which is also toxic. So using Ammo-Lock and similar products on an uncycled tank still isn't safe for fish. Even though it makes the ammonia safe (and ammonia is the most harmful of the 2), the nitrite that is produced as the tank cycles is still toxic and harmful to the fish.

 

[BigTallV]

I would go ahead and do a water change to get the ammonia back on the chart so you can tell what it's doing. It does sound like you are maybe seeing some change in the nitrate. I guess it's possible that you have enough nitrite processing bacteria to handle the nitrite that is being produced so you aren't getting a nitrite reading. If the nitrate continues to climb, then something is definitely happening since the only way for th nitrate to rise is for ammonia to be processed completely.

As for the ammonia dropping to 2 and stopping, one possible solution is that the test kit could be faulty. Did your tap water test out at 0? If so, then that's no the answer.

Yes, tap water tests at Ammonia = 0 ppm.

I'll do a partial water change.

 

[aaronc]

It is doing my head in now lol, but I will struggle on

 

[BigTallV]

I would go ahead and do a water change to get the ammonia back on the chart so you can tell what it's doing. It does sound like you are maybe seeing some change in the nitrate. I guess it's possible that you have enough nitrite processing bacteria to handle the nitrite that is being produced so you aren't getting a nitrite reading. If the nitrate continues to climb, then something is definitely happening since the only way for th nitrate to rise is for ammonia to be processed completely.

As for the ammonia dropping to 2 and stopping, one possible solution is that the test kit could be faulty. Did your tap water test out at 0? If so, then that's no the answer.

EDIT: I think you posted the part about Ammo-Lock at the same time I posted this so I missed it. I wouldn't use the Ammo-Lock at all. Ammo-lock transfoms ammonia into it's non-toxic form called ammonium (the same thing happens when pH drops to around 6.0 as ammonia becomes non-toxic at low pH and increases in toxicity as pH rises meaning an ammonia reading of 1.5 at a pH of 8 is much more toxic that the same 1.5 reading in 6.5 pH water). Adding the Ammo-Lock shouldn't have any effect on the ammonia reading. It should just make the ammonia that's present safe for fish. Using it now (or later once the tank is cycled) is really not necessary.

One thing that the makers of the ammonia-detoxifying products fail to mention is that the ammonia is still transformed into nitrite which is also toxic. So using Ammo-Lock and similar products on an uncycled tank still isn't safe for fish. Even though it makes the ammonia safe (and ammonia is the most harmful of the 2), the nitrite that is produced as the tank cycles is still toxic and harmful to the fish.

Did a 20% water change around noon hour. Put in dechlorinator (water conditioner) after taking water out, but before adding cold water back in. Added 10% of water back in again, let it warm up via heater, waited 5 to 10 minutes and added a bit more water conditioner again, then topped up the remaining 10% cold water.

I read somewhere either in this thread or on the board elsewhere about lowering the temp and potential die-back of the bacteria, i.e. inhibits the cycle somewhat. As the water change was already dropping the temp from high 80's down to low 80's, I adjusted my heater to leave the temp at low 80's. Tank fluctuates with ambient temperature of the house, programmable thermostats in your home are great for saving greenhouse emmisions, but not the best for keeping your tank within a tight temperature range.

Took water readings immediately after water change:
Ammonia = ~4 ppm, Nitrite = 0, Nitrate = ZERO!!!

Waited until dinner hour and took another set of readings:
Ammonia = 4 ppm, Nitrite = 0, Nitrate = 10 << what I would've expected to see after a water change.

I will monitor for Nitrates to rise again as Ammonia keeps disappearing and check in again with results. In the interim, why does the Nitrate reading show as 0 (* zero *) right after the water change? My tap water has about 5ppm, and the tank was reading nitrates of 20ppm prior to the change. Then some 5 hours later after the water change, it's reading at 10ppm in the tank. Is the dechlorinator playing into this?

 

[rdd1952]

I don't know what would cause the nitrate to show 0, especially if your tap water has nitrates. If it was 10 or so before taking out 20% of water, it should have still been very near 10 after adding water back (technically, you have about 4 parts - 80% of tank water left - at 10 and 1 part - the 20% tap water you added back - at 5 which would mean the new nitrate reading should be 9). The dechlorinator really should not have any effect on any of the readings.

 

[aaronc]

You don't have a nitrate removal sponge do you? My Juwel tank has one, not sure if it works that well.

 

[BigTallV]

I don't know what would cause the nitrate to show 0, especially if your tap water has nitrates. If it was 10 or so before taking out 20% of water, it should have still been very near 10 after adding water back (technically, you have about 4 parts - 80% of tank water left - at 10 and 1 part - the 20% tap water you added back - at 5 which would mean the new nitrate reading should be 9). The dechlorinator really should not have any effect on any of the readings.

I may not have been clear on the Nitrate being around 20ppm before I actually did the water change, tested immediately after (mere minute or so) and obtained 0ppm nitrate. Was surprised by the result (as mentioned I expected 10ppm) as my tap water has 5ppm - of itself I retested tapwater just to be sure. I've read some threads on the aquaria newsgroups before where people have stated that taking readings immediately after a water change (small or large) will have erratic results. So I decided to retest the water some 5 hours later and the levels were more of what I would have expected (10ppm Nitrate) or near enough the 9ppm you estimate.

AARONC: Sorry, I don't know if the sponge in my Eheim Classic external cannister is a 'nitrate removal' sponge or not. It has several sponges, namely: coarse, fine and charcoal. Also has two other kinds of filter media (ceramic rings, and these pebble like things that are 'sintered quartz glass' based - whatever that means?!?). The sponges I think are just different levels of mechanical filtration and of course a possible bacteria colonization area.

Readings this evening: Ammonia = ~4.0, Nitrite = 0, Nitrate = ~10, pH = 7.8.

I'll have to give it another day or so to see where ammonia and nitrates are at. This 47G tank in all has had some 40ml of 4% ammonia put into it, it's going somewhere. And if Nitrates move back up again to 20ppm, then categorically the "mature" filter sponge I dropped into my cannister from my friends tank - has likely been the culprit processing the ammonia fully.

 

[aaronc]

It would usually say if you have one, if it doesn't mention it then I would guess not. Just a thought

Aaron

 

[aaronc]

This is getting boring now lol. My tank was at 1ppm this morning (I added 3ppm last night) so I added another 2.5ppm and it is still at 1ppm. I really don't get it. Why does it never go down below 1ppm any more? If I added another 3-4ppm it will be gone within hours, it will never go below 1ppm though, no matter how long I leave it.

Anyone got any ideas?

 

[rdd1952]

You may have already answered this but have you tested your tap water to make sure your test kit isn't faulty. It really doesn't make any sense that it would always stop at 1 ppm.

 

[aaronc]

Tap water tests out at zero

I tested it this morning and it was predictably at 1, I didn't any more this morning so we will see if it is down to zero when I get home.

Nitrite is still not really going down

I might just get plastic fish