Fishless Cycling

[Dr. Bogger]

Hmm... Very weird indeed.

I wonder what is happening...

Maybe sometime today i will do a water change. dang, my water bill is gonna be high this month

 

[aaronc]

I hope rdd can shed some light on this. I am stumped. Could it be the amount of nitrates affecting it... as more and more ammonia is turned to nitrite, the nitrite and subsequently the nitrate levels get to such a level that they cause a slow down.

The bacteria are doing there job, just a lot slower

Also, I have been thinking about my seed filter material. Its a huge clump of filter wool which is at the top of my juwel filter. I think its too big for the filter and should be removed, would it be wise to do that now and let the bacteria on the juwel filter media take over the load? I dont want to remove it when I add the fish to realise that the bacteria on the remaining media isnt up to the job.

Advice is appreciated as always

Thanks
Aaron

EDIT: I decided to take out about 2/3 (it was a huge clump) of the filter wool as I think it was hindering the operation of the Juwel filter and reducing the flow over the media, also, I didn't want all my bacteria to be on media that is not meant to be in there and would eventually need removing. It might be worth covering what to do with 'seed media' once the cycle is started in the guide, ie when to remove it and how to do so without stalling the cycle etc. I rinsed mine in a bowl of tank water and kept squeezing it to get lots of bacteria out (hopefully) and then poured the resulting liquid back into the filter casing. Not sure what that will achieve but worth ago.

 

[aaronc]

I just seem to be posting to myself today lol, but here it goes.

Tank has suffered another major PH drop, down to 6 or less, it looks a lot more yellow than the reading for 6, which is as low as it goes.

I am going to do a hug water change, but is there anything else I can do to get the pH up and unstall the cycle, as I imagine it is going to crash again.

I will take the bogwood out for now to.

Aaron

 

[rdd1952]

Hi Aaron, don't be concerned with the pH. It really is irrelevant during cycling and will fluctuate quite a bit up and down. I imagine that if you tested it right after you added ammmonia, it would probably be quite high. As for the seed media, it is best to leave it in as long as you can. The bacteria that you have will mainly be on it so removing it will remove a good portion of your bacteria. If you have done the water change, it will at least let you see if things are being proccessed as that will lower the nitrite and nitrate to a measurable level so you can see when they start climbing again. Just keep adding ammonia as usual. As long as most of it is being processed, you have bacteria and should be good to go as soon as the nitrite drops.

 

[aaronc]

Hey RDD. I thought PH was irrelevant, but last time it crashed the cycle definitely stopped, it was stalled until I did the water change, it then picked up straight after the water change.

Again, my PH has crashed and the cycle has stalled, it has been 48 hours and the ammonia reading hasn't dropped at all.

I have used biocarbonate of soda to bring the PH up to 7, as a quick fix, and I will see how this affects it.

I did take out half of the seed media, as there was just too much of it, and it was impeding the filter, however, this was after the cycle stalled. I appreicate that it may take me a little longer to cycled with less media, but as I said above, I didnt want the tank to be dependent on media that can't stay there. The tank would have ended up filthy if I left it there and added fish.

I will monitor the ammonia levels and keep you all posted.

I am really depressed now, I was expectig to be getting fish this weekend boooo

Thanks
Aaron

 

[Dr. Bogger]

My cycle seems to have stoped now for over a week....

my nitrItes are about 0.75ppm
My ammonia is 4ppm
My NitrAtes are 7ppm
my PH is about 7.6

Any idea what might be causing my cycling to stop?

I mean it has barely even *started* cycling, it stopped at the very begining of the cycle, and i have no clue why.

 

[aaronc]

Very odd. You haven't done anything that might have killed of the bacteria, ie overdosed the Ammonia or added chlorinated water?

Aaron

 

[Dr. Bogger]

Very odd. You haven't done anything that might have killed of the bacteria, ie overdosed the Ammonia or added chlorinated water?

Aaron

Not that i know of...

Im not sure, but when i last checked it, the ammonia was a *little* higher, but not by much, so i'm gonna give it another few days, and see what happens.

 

[rdd1952]

My cycle seems to have stoped now for over a week....

my nitrItes are about 0.75ppm
My ammonia is 4ppm
My NitrAtes are 7ppm
my PH is about 7.6

Any idea what might be causing my cycling to stop?

I mean it has barely even *started* cycling, it stopped at the very begining of the cycle, and i have no clue why.

The fact that you have nitrite and nitrate would lead you to believe that the cycling has at least started unless those amounts are present in your tap or well water. Have you tested them? It usually takes at least a 3 to 5 days for the first nitrite to show up and a little longer than that before any nitrate shows up. As aaronc mentioned, adding chlorinated water can kill off your bacteria. I don't think overdosing ammonia will necessarily kill off the bacteria but it can put the reading off the chart high so you really can't tell that it's going down until it gets back to a measurable level. If the ammonia is off the chart high, you may want to do a 30% to 50% water change to get the ammonia back down to a measurable case. In any case, a water change won't hurt anything.

Cycling time frames aren't an exact science by any means. There are a lot of factors that accect it such as when the first bacteria enters the water (nobody seems to know where it comes from, off our hands, airborne, etc.), the strength of the ammonia, water temperature, the type of media (sponge, ceramic, carbon, etc) and maybe even flow rate on the filter. I think I mentioned in an earlier post that I once had a tank that went 17 days with absolutely no change in ammonia the first time. Nothing ever happened at all as I guess that first bacteria never found the tank.

 

[aaronc]

Hi RDD

I definitely think there may be something in this PH issue.

I have brought my PH back up to 6.8 and the ammonia and nitrite are now noticably lower, in only 5 hours. Where as they have sat at a constant level for the last 48.

Hopefully it won't take too long now

Aaron

 

[BigTallV]

It will probably depend on your stocking level (how dirty the filters get - over-filter and understock is the best rule). Sponges don't wear our very fast (may get clogged if you are heavily stocked and done clean them enough) and the media will last for a long, long time. You probably won't ever have to change the rings and marbles (what ever those are). I'm not certain about the charcoal sponge. As I mentioned, charcoal and carbon generally absorb about all then can in a couple weeks. The main use of charcoal or carbon by most people is to remove medications from the tank after treatment for a disease, not as a media for the bacteria.

Well my colleague gave me his well seasoned filter sponge... however it was hanging on my mailbox in a ziplock bag with some tank water when I came home yesterday afternoon. Did I forget to mention it was 2 degrees below freezing? I didn't know how long it was out there either. Amazed, I scrambled to hang it in my tank whilst I unhooked the cannister filter and inserted the used sponge. One can only hope some bacteria survived the outing. Today I measured, Ammonia ~4-5ppm, Nitr"I"te = 0.

As this is a well seasoned filter sponge that I aquired for placement into my new external cannister filter, should I expect to see any immediate readings (i.e. after 24 hours) on NitrItes? Granted I can't discern if ammonia reading has moved any since yesterday.

Okay, so after doing the above last Sunday, ammonia has been steadily dropping from 5.0ppm. So looks like the bacteria survived their outing. RECAP: My fresh/new setup commenced 12/27/2006 but stalled out at 2.0ppm for a couple weeks, then boosted ammonia on 1/13/2007. Readings since then as follows:

Date pH Temp Ammonia
1/13/2007 6.0 <<<<---- Added "mature" aquaclear filter bag into my external eheim cannister
1/14/2007 6.0
1/15/2007 5.0
1/16/2007 7.8 86.9 4.0
1/17/2007 3.5
1/18/2007 86.9 2.5
1/19/2007 8.0 88.2 2.0
1/20/2007 88.9 2.0 <<<<---- Boosted ammonia after getting this reading 2 days in a row.

NOTE: My tap water is pH 7.0 and NitrAtes of 5.0ppm.

So after sitting at 2.0ppm for last 2 days, I've decided to boost ammonia back up again (roughly 8ml in my 47G tank with 4% ammonia solution gives me a 2.0ppm increase). But now the ammonia reading is at 8.0PPM on my API liquid test kit (tested a few minutes after I added the ammonia).

QUESTIONS:
(1) Since I'm now at 8.0ppm (a little over the ~5 to 6ppm was striving for), should I do a small water change to lower the ammonia reading or do I just wait it out for a day (or two)?
(2) I have a Python gravel tube (hooks up to faucet). Do I add water conditioner before, during or after water change?
(3) While tank is fishless cycling, can I put my arm into the tank to make adjustments to any equipment, etc., or will this be too risky?
(4) Why does the ammonia level off around 2.0ppm and stay there? Why are the bacteria not dropping the ammonia level at the same rate as the prior day, or at a more progressive amount?
(5) Should I not see any nitrite readings at this point? ** NitrIte has always been at 0ppm since start of tank. **

I'm going half out of my mind, the other half is thinking of going to the LFS and picking up a bunch of zebra danios and going the old-school route.

Any suggestions or intuition on the above? Your advice is much appreciated.

/BigTallV

 

[Dr. Bogger]

I would like to know this as well.... rdd, can you shed some light?

 

[rdd1952]

QUESTIONS:
(1) Since I'm now at 8.0ppm (a little over the ~5 to 6ppm was striving for), should I do a small water change to lower the ammonia reading or do I just wait it out for a day (or two)?
(2) I have a Python gravel tube (hooks up to faucet). Do I add water conditioner before, during or after water change?
(3) While tank is fishless cycling, can I put my arm into the tank to make adjustments to any equipment, etc., or will this be too risky?
(4) Why does the ammonia level off around 2.0ppm and stay there? Why are the bacteria not dropping the ammonia level at the same rate as the prior day, or at a more progressive amount?
(5) Should I not see any nitrite readings at this point? ** NitrIte has always been at 0ppm since start of tank. **

I'm going half out of my mind, the other half is thinking of going to the LFS and picking up a bunch of zebra danios and going the old-school route.

Any suggestions or intuition on the above? Your advice is much appreciated.

/BigTallV

1) What type of test kit do you have? Does it go higher than 8.0? If 8.0 is the highest level on the test kit, you could actually be higher than that. I would do enough of a water change to at least get the ammonia back comfortably on the chart so you can see any change that occurs.
2) You can add the dechlorinator at any time. I use a python too and generally squirt a little in about half way through refilling the tank and a little more after I have stopped the water. I don't measure mine (I use API Stress Coat), simply squirt it in. Unless you add an extreme amount (like a full bottle), you can't overdose (a thread a year or so ago where someone contacted a couple of the dechlorinator companies and they addressed that issue). I have never had any problem.
3) It is fine to put your arm in (wash and thoroughly rinse hand and arm first of course). On my 75 gallon, I added the plants about half way through the cycle and didn't have any problems.
4) I'm really not sure why this is the case. They should definitely take it completely to 0 and it should happen a little faster each day. You should also get a nitrite reading as soon as the ammonia starts getting processed. If you aren't seeing nitrite, then something else is happening to the ammonia. What type chemicals and water treatments are you using? If they say "removes ammonia" (may have to check the company website if the bottle isn't clear), then the chemicals are getting rid of the ammonia and it isn't being processed into nitrite. You really don't want to use any chemical that "removes ammonia".
5) See #4. One other explanation for no nitrite is that you have/had enough bacteria from the seed filter you received to process it. Are your nitrate levels going up? If not, then you haven't had any nitrite to process.

 

[Dr. Bogger]

I would still realy want to know why the ammonia keeps stopping at 2.0... and is not processed fully... this is realy weird to me...

What would we do if this continues to happen? just do a water change to get rid of it, and add the fish?

 

[rdd1952]

As I said, I'm not certain why it does that. The key thing is whether nitrite is being produced and processed. If there isn't any, or hasn't been any, nitrite and nitrate, then no ammonia is being processed and something else is removing it. I think that if the nitrite goes completely through it's cycle, then you would be fine to add fish. Otherwise though, you won't have any bacteria and will basically be cycling with fish.

The one thing to remember about a fishless cycle is that most likely, the fish you stock your tank with won't ever be able to produce the amount of ammonia you are adding all at one time. After a fishless cycle is complete, you will probably have enough bacteria to put support 3 or 4 times more fish (excludiing heavy waste producers like oscars, plecos and goldfish) in the tank than what would be considered a full load and still process their waste (you would end up having to do lots of water changes to remove the nitrates though). So even if the ammonia isn't going all the way back to zero, as long as the nitrite rises off the chart and then drops to 0 and the nitrates go out of site, you should have plenty of bacteria to stock safely your tank.

One other thing, and this is a whole different issue, but the biggest producer of waste and ammonia in a tank isn't usually the fish. It's us when we overfeed and let the excess food lay around and rot producing the same ammonia that fish produce.