Fishless Cycling

[rdd1952]

One thing to keep in mind is that the nitrate sponge will also house part of your bacteria colony. You may want to replace it before you add fish and make sure the bacteria colony is back to where it needs to be before adding fish. As a general rule, unless you have extremely messy fish, are severely overstocked, don't do water changes very often or have a high level of nitrate in your tap water, nitrate won't be a problem, especially in a planted tank. You most likely will never see your nitrates go up to any significant level and may even need to add nitrate for your plants if your fish don't produce enough.

 

[aaronc]

Cool that sounds good. I will monitor it.

I have added my first fish today.

8 Small Congo Tetra
6 Bronze Corys
4 Tiny Clown Loach (I have already arranged a home for these when they start to get bigger)

To be fair I don't think will be enough to keep the bacteria up, as they are all small, I am going to get 10 harlequins at the weekend. I couldn't get any today as they only had tiny ones in, that would be bite size for the congos.

Thank you very much for all your help and advice in this thread, it has been hugely helpful

Aaron

 

[rdd1952]

Regardless of what you put in, they won't produce enough waste to feed all the bacteria you have developed. Some will die off but it won't be a problem. You'd almost have to put 4 or 5 times a normal fish load in to feed all the bacteria you have. Most harlequins you find in LFSs will be small. They will grow with time though. Congratulations & good luck.

 

[aaronc]

Hi RDD

Will the bacteria that die of cause any great increase in toxins?

The harlequins were very very small, didn't fanc chancing it with the other fish. Another LFS has some more mature ones, but I can't go and get them till saturday

Thanks again for the help and good luck to anyone else taking this route

Aaron

 

[BigTallV]

I don't know what would cause the nitrate to show 0, especially if your tap water has nitrates. If it was 10 or so before taking out 20% of water, it should have still been very near 10 after adding water back (technically, you have about 4 parts - 80% of tank water left - at 10 and 1 part - the 20% tap water you added back - at 5 which would mean the new nitrate reading should be 9). The dechlorinator really should not have any effect on any of the readings.

I may not have been clear on the Nitrate being around 20ppm before I actually did the water change, tested immediately after (mere minute or so) and obtained 0ppm nitrate. Was surprised by the result (as mentioned I expected 10ppm) as my tap water has 5ppm - of itself I retested tapwater just to be sure. I've read some threads on the aquaria newsgroups before where people have stated that taking readings immediately after a water change (small or large) will have erratic results. So I decided to retest the water some 5 hours later and the levels were more of what I would have expected (10ppm Nitrate) or near enough the 9ppm you estimate.

AARONC: Sorry, I don't know if the sponge in my Eheim Classic external cannister is a 'nitrate removal' sponge or not. It has several sponges, namely: coarse, fine and charcoal. Also has two other kinds of filter media (ceramic rings, and these pebble like things that are 'sintered quartz glass' based - whatever that means?!?). The sponges I think are just different levels of mechanical filtration and of course a possible bacteria colonization area.

Readings this evening: Ammonia = ~4.0, Nitrite = 0, Nitrate = ~10, pH = 7.8.

I'll have to give it another day or so to see where ammonia and nitrates are at. This 47G tank in all has had some 40ml of 4% ammonia put into it, it's going somewhere. And if Nitrates move back up again to 20ppm, then categorically the "mature" filter sponge I dropped into my cannister from my friends tank - has likely been the culprit processing the ammonia fully.

ENVIRONMENT:
TANK: Perfecto 47G "Column" (30" H x 20" W x 18" D).
FILTER: Eheim Classic External Cannister #2217 (ceramic rings, coarse sponges, sintered glass pebbles, fine sponge, charcoal sponge)
PUMP: Rena 300 Air on a single 14" bubble wall.
HEATER: Hydor External In-Line
PLANTS: None presently, planning on having some
SUBSTRATE: gravel (black, multicolour accents)
ORNAMENTS: rock, pebbles, plastic shipwreck and divers helmet

Please ponder the following readings:
Date Ammonia Nitrates
13/01/2007 5.0 <<< Boosted ammonia prior day
14/01/2007 5.0 <<< Added "mature" filter from aquaclear into my Eheim cannister
15/01/2007 5.0
16/01/2007 4.0
17/01/2007 3.5
18/01/2007 2.5
19/01/2007 2.0 10
20/01/2007 2.0 20 <<< Boosted ammonia in evening to 8.0ppm (or higher)
21/01/2007 8.0 0 <<< Still had High reading in morning
21/01/2007 4.0 10 <<< Did 20% water change at noon (to get back into readable range on my test card), obtained these readings at dinnertime
22/01/2007 3.5 10
23/01/2007 3.0 10
24/01/2007 2.5 20
25/01/2007 2.0 20

NOTES for my "fish-less" cycle:
* Nitrites reading has always been at 0 ppm.
* Tap water has 5.0ppm Nitrates, 0ppm Ammonia
* Test kit is API Freshwater Master Test Kit
* Tank was started on 27/12/2006. Fishless cycle 'stalled' so I retried 12/01/2007 per rdd's advice (not blaming, rdd's helping me!!!)
* Water conditioner used is "Big Al's Water Conditioner"

QUESTIONS (and concerns):
1) Ammonia reduction is occuring but somewhat slowly compared to that indicated in other posts and from my understanding of rdd's original post. Nitrates appear to be steadily building as well. I believe this to be as a result of having a "mature" filter media being added into my "new/virgin" tank setup. i.e. was processing ammonia fully in its original tank, now picking up where it left off only now in my tank. Can I consider my tank cycled?
2) If above answer is "Yes", Why is it taking sooooo long for ammonia to drop (impression is it should do so within 8 to 12 hours, 24 hours at most)?
3) Can I now add fish? I know exactly what fish-load the "mature" filter had in its original tank... if that helps the equation any.
4) If yes to #3 above, do I dose "Ammo-lock" to render the present ammonia "safe" and begin stocking this weekend?
5) How many fish can I safely or reasonably add in a single go?
6) When would it be considered safe to add any more beyond that?

** The mature filter addition after my stalled fishless cycle has me thinking I'm out of fishless cycling territory... thus all the questions as to how to proceed safely. **

CONSIDERING STOCKING:
6 x Dwarf Neon Rainbo, 1 x Red Tail Black Shark, 4 x Dwarf Gourami, 3 x Otto, 6 x Flame Tetra (orange von Rio)

<also pondering one of following>
1 x Bala Shark, OR 3 x German Blue Ram, OR 2 x Krib

The kids want fish, the wife wants fish (she bought this big prezzie for me), heck... I want fish too!!! Advice or responses to my concerns above are very much appreciated.

 

[rdd1952]

Hi RDD

Will the bacteria that die of cause any great increase in toxins?

The harlequins were very very small, didn't fanc chancing it with the other fish. Another LFS has some more mature ones, but I can't go and get them till saturday

Thanks again for the help and good luck to anyone else taking this route

Aaron

Don't worry about the bacteria die-off. It won't have any effect at all. It isn't a sudden thinkg anyway, they will just leel out. the bacteriacolony will fluctuate anyway depending on the waste in the tank. It will increase and decrease as needed. If you want the larger harlequins, that's fine. I don't think you have anything that would be a threat to the small ones though.

QUESTIONS (and concerns):
1) Ammonia reduction is occuring but somewhat slowly compared to that indicated in other posts and from my understanding of rdd's original post. Nitrates appear to be steadily building as well. I believe this to be as a result of having a "mature" filter media being added into my "new/virgin" tank setup. i.e. was processing ammonia fully in its original tank, now picking up where it left off only now in my tank. Can I consider my tank cycled?
2) If above answer is "Yes", Why is it taking sooooo long for ammonia to drop (impression is it should do so within 8 to 12 hours, 24 hours at most)?
3) Can I now add fish? I know exactly what fish-load the "mature" filter had in its original tank... if that helps the equation any.
4) If yes to #3 above, do I dose "Ammo-lock" to render the present ammonia "safe" and begin stocking this weekend?
5) How many fish can I safely or reasonably add in a single go?
6) When would it be considered safe to add any more beyond that?

** The mature filter addition after my stalled fishless cycle has me thinking I'm out of fishless cycling territory... thus all the questions as to how to proceed safely. **

CONSIDERING STOCKING:
6 x Dwarf Neon Rainbo, 1 x Red Tail Black Shark, 4 x Dwarf Gourami, 3 x Otto, 6 x Flame Tetra (orange von Rio)

<also pondering one of following>
1 x Bala Shark, OR 3 x German Blue Ram, OR 2 x Krib

The kids want fish, the wife wants fish (she bought this big prezzie for me), heck... I want fish too!!! Advice or responses to my concerns above are very much appreciated.

1) I don't think you're cycled because the ammonia isn't processing in 10 to 12 hours. I'm not sure about the nitrites but it looks like they are being processed as you have never had a reading but your itrate is going up. Keep adding ammonia. It won't be long until it is processed completely.
3) I don't think your ready for a full load yet. When you got the filter from the mature tank, you didn't get the full bacteria colony from it. There would have been bacteria on the walls of the tank, in the gravel, on the inside walls of the filter, etc. That's why you can change a filter pack and not lose all your bacteria.
4) If you do decide to get fish, I would definitely use the Ammo-Lock although I am not a proponent of using chemicals. You still have the ammonia issue to contend with so you would have to use something to detoxify it.
5) In a fully cycled tank, you can easily add 75% to 100% of your full fish load. More than enough bacteria would be there so there wouldn't be a problem.
6) You can add more any time the tank and bacteria are able to handle the load you have. As long as your ammonia and nitrite readings are always at 0, it is safe to add.

The mature filter doesn't really take you away from a fishless cycle, it just helps jump start the bacteria so they can start multipling. Considering you need millions of bacteria. It's a lot quicker to get there if you start with hundreds or thousands than to wait on the first one and go from there.

As for the Balas/GBRs/Kribs, I would probably stay away from the balas since you want the RTBS. There may be a compatibility issue there (not sure but I know sharks sometimes don't do well with their own kind). I love the rams and really intended to get some for my 75 gallon when I set it up but couldn't find them locally at the time so I never got any.

 

[VanesscaCandelacor]

i know this probably has nothing to do with where im posting it..but im new at all this anddd kind of freaking out


so.i feel dumb..yesterday i got my first fish..its a small gold fish..not tropical as far as i know..
im a sucker and i thought it might get lonely so i got another one today..im pretty sure its some kind of tropical gold fish..i also think it may be pregnant..
i went away for a few hours..and i came back and it was floating upside down breathing irregularly.
it kinda freaked me out..so i got a big tub of water.(my bowls kinda small)i filled it with warmer water and after about 10 minutes it looked a little better..the other fish swims fine in the colder water..im just wondering why it wasnt doing so well..do you think it was that it was too cold..it was pregnant..or mabey there just wasnt enough room?

 

[rdd1952]

Hi Vanessca and welcome to the forum. You will probably get a better answer if you post in the Emergencies or regular Beginners sections. To do that, you will need to validate your membership by going to the email you should have received when you registered and clicking the link.

As for gold fish, they like water at room temperature, not necessarily cold. When water gets too hot (or warm I guess is a better word) the amount of oxygen in the water decreases so fish will come to the top in an attempt to get air. You can get more help on goldfish in the Cold Water section. Good luck.

 

[BigTallV]

1) I don't think you're cycled because the ammonia isn't processing in 10 to 12 hours. I'm not sure about the nitrites but it looks like they are being processed as you have never had a reading but your itrate is going up. Keep adding ammonia. It won't be long until it is processed completely.
3) I don't think your ready for a full load yet. When you got the filter from the mature tank, you didn't get the full bacteria colony from it. There would have been bacteria on the walls of the tank, in the gravel, on the inside walls of the filter, etc. That's why you can change a filter pack and not lose all your bacteria.
4) If you do decide to get fish, I would definitely use the Ammo-Lock although I am not a proponent of using chemicals. You still have the ammonia issue to contend with so you would have to use something to detoxify it.
5) In a fully cycled tank, you can easily add 75% to 100% of your full fish load. More than enough bacteria would be there so there wouldn't be a problem.
6) You can add more any time the tank and bacteria are able to handle the load you have. As long as your ammonia and nitrite readings are always at 0, it is safe to add.

The mature filter doesn't really take you away from a fishless cycle, it just helps jumpstart the bacteria so they can start multipling. Considering you need millions of bacteria. I's a lot quicker to get there if you start with hundreds or thousands than to wait on the first one and go from there.

As for the Balas/GBRs/Kribs, I would probably stay away from the balas since you want the RTBS. There may be a compatibility issue there (not sure but I know sharks sometimes don't do well with their own kind). I love the rams and really intended to get some for my 75 gallon when I set it up but couldn't find them locally at the time so I never got any.

Info from Tim's Tropicals site indicates that a single Red Tail Black Shark can be kept with Balas. In my case, I only want a single bala too (appartenly they can be kept lone, or if not they should be in a group/shoal of 6 or more). But their adult size potential is of concern as my 47G tank being a tad lower than deemed minimum for a Bala. I figured the RTBS to be strictly bottom and Bala mid, Balas supposedly are peaceful and leave others alone. A layered approach for my 'column' style tank is required, as not a lot of 'running' room at 20" wide and 18" deep, but 30" high. Agreed on the Rams, I think they're a great addition. But I digress, so I'll post in another part of the board where more appropriate.

re: 1) How much longer (roughly) will it be until it is processing completely, a week, two weeks, heavens forbid - a month?
re: 4) I am torn on completing the fishless cycle versus adding fish and treating with Ammo-Lock or Prime to convert ammonia to "safe" form. Fishless cycle has merits to it. Having to spend a couple hundred dollars (CDN) on fish and have some of them possibly die due to "new tank", could be rather expensive as some of the individuals are $pricey$. Nearly a month to the day of starting the tank has got me staring at some lovely water circulating.
re: 6) My reasoning for asking was based on my tank processing ammonia at a rate of ~0.5ppm per day (if I had to guess based on colour changes in test results). If I dosed Ammo-Lock or Prime, to detoxify, then added fish, the amount of ammonia they produce should be reasonably close to the rate being processed currently by the bacteria daily (nitrite is at zero).

A related question, if I dose with Prime (considered a complete chlorine/chloramine and ammonia detox solution) should this not be viable for use with both fish and fishless cycling as far as water conditioning goes? Is the safely converted ammonia not still available to the bacteria as food in fish or fishless cycle? I ask as I would like to do a partial water change if the Nitrates get above 40ppm, but don't want to affect bacteria (chlorine/chloramine and possible ammonia release in conversion of it).

Thanks for your answers.

 

[rdd1952]

I think the size of your tank is definitely a concern for a bala. They need a lot of swimming room and your tank not being a standard tank cuts down on the room they have.

It really is hard to say how much longer it will take for your tank to finish. If it is processing 5. ppm per day, it shouldn't be much longer but no guarantee. As you mentioned, that probably is about the same amount that a small fish load would produce but I would still be concerned about the nitrite. The Prime should be fine. It would detoxify the ammonia which should not cause a problem with it being processed in the cycling process but that still produces nitrite and if you don't have enough bacteria to handle it, you could still have a problem.

If you do add fish before the tank is completely cycled, I would hold off on the GBRs for a while. From my understanding, they need a more stable tank.

 

[BigTallV]

I think the size of your tank is definitely a concern for a bala. They need a lot of swimming room and your tank not being a standard tank cuts down on the room they have.

It really is hard to say how much longer it will take for your tank to finish. If it is processing 5. ppm per day, it shouldn't be much longer but no guarantee. As you mentioned, that probably is about the same amount that a small fish load would produce but I would still be concerned about the nitrite. The Prime should be fine. It would detoxify the ammonia which should not cause a problem with it being processed in the cycling process but that still produces nitrite and if you don't have enough bacteria to handle it, you could still have a problem.

If you do add fish before the tank is completely cycled, I would hold off on the GBRs for a while. From my understanding, they need a more stable tank.

Thanks for the tip on the GBR's. I've seen some nice specimens today but wanted to leave them until all other inhabitants are in my tank. I'll be getting a small bala, but I know they do grow (they're youngsters in the stores mostly). So my contingency plan is to move him to a friends 100G tank (48" wide) if he gets to any 'questionable' length.

I did a little redecorating in the tank with a large Gymnocoronis Spilanthoides and a small Anubias Hastifolia. Bought some Prime and started out with 4 dwarf neon rainbows, wanted 6 - but they only had 4 on hand at the store I elected to purchase from. I'm testing the water each day as I go. The Prime product label says it also safely converts/detoxifies Nitrites and Nitrates. Though I'll have to do some math to convert the mg/L on the label to the ml/G that I'm used to working with.

Again, many many thanks for your advice and guiding me through my tank startup. Very much appreciated.

 

[Dr. Bogger]

Well my tank is doing pritty good so far

The ammonia is being processed in about 8 hours, but my nitrites still havent gone down.... right now they're about 2.0ppm... and they've been at that level for a while. (i hope its not stuck )

But as far as ammonia is concerned, its doing very well, ever sence i did a 25% water change, and i added more ammonia daily, its doing very good.... i'm guessin it will be maybe another week and a half to 2 weeks.

 

[rdd1952]

If your tank is going through ammonia that fast, your nitrites should be off the chart high and the nitrate should be climbing too. What is your nitrate reading?

 

[Dr. Bogger]

My Nitrates are about 6 to 7 ppm... thats not realy that much, so i have no idea what is happening here....

Everytime i add ammonia, i can lituraly add it twice a day if i wanted to... as it drops down to 0 in about 8 hours or maybe less.

hmmm.... any suggestions?

 

[rdd1952]

I'm not sure what is going on but it sounds like something is removing the ammonia other than the bacteria. Unfortunately, my high speed internet connection is down (modem died last night) so I am stuck with dial-up (can't believe this is all we had at one time) and don't really want to take the time to read back through your other posts (your tank would probably be finished cycling by the time I went through the past 4 or 5 pages). What type of water conditioner are you using? Does it mention anything about "removing" ammonia? Are you using any type of nitrate removal sponge that could be removing any nitrate that is being processed? With your tank going through ammonia in 8 hours, your nitrites should be out of off the chart by now by now. And if any nitrites are being processed, the nitrates should also be sky high.