Cycle Crashed

Based on your Ammonia calc numbers you should have done nothing. The level of toxic ammonia in the tank is so low as not to matter at all. Changing water will just slow down the recovery of the bacteria. I disagree 100% withColin in this point. You do not automatically need to change water at any level of ammonia or nitrite.

The progress of any cycle as well as the ultimate amount of bacteria that will be created in a tank is a function of one thing- ammonia levels. The bacteria only reproduce when there is mopre ammonia than they need to thrive. When this is the case they divide. If the concentration of ammonia in a tank changes, so will the reproductive rate of the bacteria. This works in both directions. if you add more fish or other things that increase ammonia levels, the bacteria will reproduce faster than they naturally would and their numbers increase.

Conversely, if the ammonia load in a tank is decreased, reproduction slows to below the stable rate and the amount of bacteria decreases. You can likely let your tank run at the above parameters for some time. At 6.0 the danger is from the ammonium not the ammonia. So, you can likely run for a few weeks at the parameters you report and not harm the fish.

Where I have a problem with the number you report is why the water is at 6.0. The KH is what holds up the pH. Please go here and read about water chemistry and altering it: https://fins.actwin.com/mirror/begin-chem.html

How do you test the kH? Many kits do this in degrees not ppm. Typically there are 17.8 ppm in a degree of either GH or KH. If your number of 71.6 would be about 4 degrees. This should be enough to keep the pH higher than 6.0.

I do not agree at all with what Colin wrote above. Do not change water at any reading of ammonia, use the Calculator and do nothing until the NH3 goes over .05 ppm. If the Total Ammonia is at 2.0 or higher, then do a water change if the NH3 is well over .05. For nitrite you do not need tpo do a water change ever because a bit of salt blocks nitrite from entering a fish. Directions for using salt to block nitrite can be found here: https://www.fishforums.net/threads/rescuing-a-fish-in-cycle-gone-wild-part-il.433778/

The use of the minimal amount of salt needed to counteract nitrite is not enough to have any effect on the cycle at all. It wont bother most fish either because the salt level is low. The time it needs to be in the water is not very long- just until the nitrite drops to 0. Unfortunately, there is no equivalent to the chloride in salt blocking nitrite for use with ammonia. There, the important consideration is to avoid changing water or turning the ammonia into ammonium unless the ammonia (NH3) component exceeds .05 ppm. But using an ammonia detoxifier will slow the cycle.

The reason for avoiding water changes is they slow the cycle. By reducing the ammonia level one also reduces the amount of bacteria that will be created. What makes the fishless cycle so inviting (aside for no fish being harmed) is we usually do not need to change water unless we have added too much ammonia. That is why the article here suggest using 3 ppm on the Total Ion scale. For Doctor Tim, who uses the Nitrogen scale, that number is 2.56 ppm. He advises not exceeding 5 ppm for Ammonia-N or Nitrite-N. On the Total Ion scale those numbers would be 6.25 ppm for ammonia and 16.27 ppm for nitrite. The API kit measures using the Total Ion scale.
 
Hi @Coolysd,
What are the water parameters of the water change you are using?
20240901_140346.jpg
This my tap water reading. So crazy!
 
Thanks so much for all of this info!! Very helpful indeed!
Well, I did end up doing a 50% wc (prior to opening the forum) using only the API tap water conditioner. I Also added some Dr Tim's BB. I like to keep some on hand in the fridge. I tested about 2-3 hours afterwards. For all water parameter testing I use the API kits including KH and GH.
Amon 1
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0
PH 6.8
Temp 74.5
NH3 .0033

Seeing the NH3 and learning the meaning etc. does ease my anxiety for sure! I just wish I knew exactly what I did/didn't do for this to happen. The fish do however seem happier and more active since the wc.
Question. Should I hold off feeding them? I fed them a little yesterday but haven't yet today.

So my take away is to just let it be and monitor it closely. Thanks again! If there is anything else I should lookout for or any other knowledge tidbits, please send 'em my way!! :thanks:
 
Thanks so much for all of this info!! Very helpful indeed!
Well, I did end up doing a 50% wc (prior to opening the forum) using only the API tap water conditioner. I Also added some Dr Tim's BB. I like to keep some on hand in the fridge. I tested about 2-3 hours afterwards. For all water parameter testing I use the API kits including KH and GH.
Amon 1
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0
PH 6.8
Temp 74.5
NH3 .0033

Seeing the NH3 and learning the meaning etc. does ease my anxiety for sure! I just wish I knew exactly what I did/didn't do for this to happen. The fish do however seem happier and more active since the wc.
Question. Should I hold off feeding them? I fed them a little yesterday but haven't yet today.

So my take away is to just let it be and monitor it closely. Thanks again! If there is anything else I should lookout for or any other knowledge tidbits, please send 'em my way!! :thanks:
I would hold off feeding and see where the ammonia level is in 24 hours. With your pH at 6.8, the ammonia shouldn't be dangerous. It looks like you have chloramine in your tap water, so that is where ammonia is coming from. You have to double the dose of Prime for chloramine in order to detoxify its ammonia and chlorine. Your test kit should still see the ammonia when Prime has it detoxified. Prime is safe up to 5X, so you will be okay. Your bacteria should eliminate that ammonia in 24 hours. Prime detoxifies any ammonia and nitrites up to 48 hours before it becomes inactive, which will re-release the ammonia and nitrites if the BB hasn't eliminated them by then. It is good you added the BB. I think you got all the bases covered now.
 
Last edited:
A couple of thoughts here. Dr. Tim's bacteria is ina doirmant state in the bottle. the presence of ammoni and the nitrie from that are what wake them up so the get to work. So, there is a bit of a lag between the time you pour thr Dr.Tim's into the water and whem you will see a drop in ammonia. Once the ammonia is being consumed there should ne nitrite being created. However, there are nitrite bacteria in the bottle which will go to work pretty quickly. It is possible that one never test for any nitrite when seeding the right types og bacteria at the start.

More importantly. your pH looks to be at least 8.0 to me. When I looked at the first tube, I immediately thought you needed to do the high range test. Then I saw the second tube.That means the ammonia is a potential problem at 75F. NH3 would be .0504 ppm. If the pH is actually 8.1 the NH3 goes up to .0627. So you are right on the edge.

I suggest that you monitor for ammonia every 12 hours or so. You want to see it drop. You do not want to see it rise nor do you want to see it do nothing over a few tests. If you see it drop you can check for nitrite. Of that is 0 check for nitrate. If nitrate is up then you know the nitrite being converted is the cause.

BTW- when I add Dr. Tim's bacteria I turn off the tank light(s) for a day. I pour it into the water, but into the filter is OK as well. I would turn off the filter, remover the media basket and pot int some of the bacteria. they replace the media and restart the filter. The goal is to get the bacteria int the media.
 
Thanks so much for your thoughts! The pic with the 3 tubes are actually my Tap water results. So crazy! I can't stand the taste of it :sick: bottled water only over here. :thanks::thanks::thanks:
 
BTW- when I add Dr. Tim's bacteria I turn off the tank light(s) for a day. I pour it into the water, but into the filter is OK as well. I would turn off the filter, remover the media basket and pot int some of the bacteria. they replace the media and restart the filter. The goal is to get the bacteria int the media.
Lights have been off all day. I did actually pour it in both the water and the intake of both HOB's. ✅✅
I've learned so much from not only this thread, but some much older ones in the forum that I came across on the same subject matter.
So THANK YOU to all of you for being here and sharing!! :thanks::thanks::thanks:
 
Good morning and Happy Labor Day!!
It's 6am here in Southern California. I've been up for about an hour now (thank you for that Sir Squeeks Alot, my mini panther). :zz🐈‍⬛
Here are this mornings parameters:
Amon .25
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0
PH 6.4
Temp 75.2
NH3 .0003

PH has dropped significantly. I just don't understand what is making it drop so much nor do I have a clue as to what to do about it. BUT, I'm just going to leave it alone, unless y'all tell me otherwise. I am going to feed them just a little bit. They look like they are starving lol but it's nice to see them so active! Everyone is accounted for, so far so good with no losses!:banana:
 

Attachments

  • 20240902_055223.jpg
    20240902_055223.jpg
    227.9 KB · Views: 17
Good morning and Happy Labor Day!!
It's 6am here in Southern California. I've been up for about an hour now (thank you for that Sir Squeeks Alot, my mini panther). :zz🐈‍⬛
Here are this mornings parameters:
Amon .25
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0
PH 6.4
Temp 75.2
NH3 .0003

PH has dropped significantly. I just don't understand what is making it drop so much nor do I have a clue as to what to do about it. BUT, I'm just going to leave it alone, unless y'all tell me otherwise. I am going to feed them just a little bit. They look like they are starving lol but it's nice to see them so active! Everyone is accounted for, so far so good with no losses!:banana:
Can you measure your KH now? It most likely is low. So you know that nitrite and nitrate are acidic, and because they are constantly being produced, the pH of your aquarium will decrease over time.

If your KH (carbonate hardness) is low or non-existent, then nothing can neutralize these acids. This is one reason to make water changes, to bring that buffer up or by adding some sodium bicarbonate or Alkalinity Up to slowly raise the alkalinity up to 6.8-7.0 or to wherever you need it to be for your fish species.
 
A PH of 6 and below starts to be detrimental to nitrifying bacteria exponentially, the presence of high ammonia and nitrite can also further stress on the colony while promoting acidification of the water...

Your KH is low, I assume your reading it's in ppm (anything else wouldn't make sense) ? Not critically low but it can make the tank more susceptible to fluctuation. Your GH if in ppm too, on the other hand in pretty high.

You need to add buffer to keep the tank on track. It must be done slowly by small increment. Preferably during water changes.

Do no raise the KH too much, just enough to make sure that the PH it is not dropping off chart. Once your bacteria colony is going to takeover again the acidifying effect will lower.

The test showing the readings of your tap water... Is it directly from the tap or the water had time to rest ?

High concentrations of calcium and magnesium ions, which contribute to GH, can compete with the bacteria for nutrients... As dumb as it can sound. Calcium and magnesium ions can bind to these nutrients, forming insoluble compounds. When nutrients are bound to calcium and magnesium, like phosphorus and nitrogen compounds they become less readily available for the bacteria to absorb.

Normally a high GH can make it difficult to lower the pH, but in your case it seem that it doesn't help much.

Water chemistry is the rabbit hole that leads to wonderland. A world filled with wonders...

Yeah... Wonder what is happening ???
 
GH should not have agreat effect on pH, KH is the key. The bacteria need inorganic carbon. In out tanks this means one of three things CO2, and then the major components of KH in aquariums- cabonates and bicarbonates.

But, low pH does not stop nitrifying bacteria, it merely makes them less efficient. That is due to the low pH turning all the ammonia into ammonium.

Gieseke, A., Tarre, S., Green, M. and de Beer, D., 2006. Nitrification in a biofilm at low pH values: role of in situ microenvironments and acid tolerance. Applied and environmental microbiology, 72(6), pp.4283-4292.

ABSTRACT​

The sensitivity of nitrifying bacteria to acidic conditions is a well-known phenomenon and generally attributed to the lack and/or toxicity of substrates (NH3 and HNO2) with decreasing pHs. In contrast, we observed strong nitrification at a pH around 4 in biofilms grown on chalk particles and investigated the following hypotheses: the presence of less acidic microenvironments and/or the existence of acid-tolerant nitrifiers. Microelectrode measurements (in situ and under various experimental conditions) showed no evidence of a neutral microenvironment, either within the highly active biofilm colonizing the chalk surface or within a control biofilm grown on a nonbuffering (i.e., sintered glass) surface under acidic pH. A 16S rRNA approach (clone libraries and fluorescence in situ hybridizations) did not reveal uncommon nitrifying (potentially acid-tolerant) strains. Instead, we found a strongly acidic microenvironment, evidence for a clear adaptation to the low pH in situ, and the presence of nitrifying populations related to subgroups with low Kms for ammonia (Nitrosopira spp., Nitrosomonas oligotropha, and Nitrospira spp.). Acid-consuming (chalk dissolution) and acid-producing (ammonia oxidation) processes are equilibrated on a low-pH steady state that is controlled by mass transfer limitation through the biofilm. Strong affinity to ammonia and possibly the expression of additional functions, e.g., ammonium transporters, are adaptations that allow nitrifiers to cope with acidic conditions in biofilms and other habitats.
from https://journals.asm.org/doi/full/10.1128/aem.00241-06

There are more papers which support the above if folks need more links.
 
You will not be happy to hear what I am about to say. Most of what you did yo try and "fix" things likely is what caused the ammonia.

Chloramine, when there is any ammonia around does not. kill the bacteria, it just puts them to sleep. As soon as ammonia is available again, they wake up and go back to work.

The bacteria live in a biofilm they create and it protects them from a lot of things. It takes chlorine 24 hours to fully penetrate the biofilm in order to kill the bacteria living in it. I know folks who rinse out their bio-media in their chlorinated tap water. The concentration of chlorine that might be in tap water is pretty low. So, when one rinses media under it and returnes it to the filter and then refills the tank with water that has the porper amount of dechlor added to it or the tank, it will quickly neutralize the tiny amount of chlorine that mat have been inthe media when you returned it to the filter.

Next, when one is doing a fishless cycle it is always a good idea to use a dechlor that does not detoxify ammonia. The reason is that ammonia detox is accomplished by converting it into ammonium. The bacteria want ammonia but they can handle ammonium. The problem is that they do so much less effciciently than they use ammonia. This slows a cycle.

You wasted your money on the Stability, and maybe the Dr. Tim's as well. But his is the choice in bottled bacteria because the Nitrospira it constains are patented and he and Tetra share the patent. Stability does not contain any live bacteria, it contains spores. What is in the Dr. Tim's bottle will be present in your tank for a very long time, what is in stability will not be there in short order in terms of handling nitrogen.

The nitrifying bacteria live all over one's tank on the hard surfaces. However, the bacteria are somewhat photophobic so they thrive where it is on the darker side. This is one reason why the material of which filters are made is not clear. So cleaning the decor likely killed or removed any bacteria living on the under or insides.

One last thing here. Ammonia (NH3) is a gas which can be dissolved in water, When it is, most of it turns into ammonium (NH4) which is way way less toxic than NH3. How much ot the Total Ammonia (TA) is in ones water, that is how much is in each form, depend on the pH and tempertature of the water, but the pH matter much more. As a rule the higher the pH and temperature, the more of the TA will be in the toxic NH3 form. You did not report your parameters so I ran a couple of simulations on your reported .25 and .50. The goal is to make sure the ammonia as NH3 is never much higher than 0.05 ppm.

So I will assume the worst case likely to be your parameters for pH and Temp. and you have 0.25 ppm TA"

- If the pH is 7.0 and the temp is 75F, then the NH3 is 0.0013 ppm. At 80F it is 0.0016 ppm. No action needed.
- If the pH is 7.5 and the temp is 75F, then the NH3 is 0.0041 ppm. At 80F it is 0.0051 ppm. No action needed.
- If the pH is 8.0 and the temp is 75F, then the NH3 is 0.0013 ppm. At 80F it is 0.0016 ppm. No action needed.
- If the pH is 8.5 and the temp is 75F, then the NH3 is 0.0126 ppm. At 80F it is 0.0155 ppm. No action needed.

And lets run the above at 0.50 ppm of TA:

- If the pH is 7.0 and the temp is 75F, then the NH3 is 0.0026 ppm. At 80F it is 0.0033 ppm. No action needed.
- If the pH is 7.5 and the temp is 75F, then the NH3 is 0.0083 ppm. At 80F it is 0.0102 ppm. No action needed.
- If the pH is 8.0 and the temp is 75F, then the NH3 is 0.0252 ppm. At 80F it is 0.0310 ppm. No action needed.
- If the pH is 8.5 and the temp is 75F, then the NH3 is 0.0719 ppm. At 80F it is 0.0864 ppm. Do a 50% WC.

The odds are decent that the fish you have could handle the red levels above for at least a few hours if not a day or two. Ammonium may be less toxic, but it can still harm fish at much higher levels than above and/or a way longer exposure time. And I use a pretty conservative number for where to put the ammonia red line to keep fish safe.

Finally, under optimal conditions the nitrifying bacteria can double in about 8 hours for the ammonia ones and about 13 for the nitrite ones.

edited for the many typos
Interesting info about Dr Tims and Tetra bacteria in a bottle. I read an article buried somewhere about Tetra Safe-Start being the offspring of the only bacteria that used to work- the original had to be refrigerated, but apparently Tetra figured out how to extend the life and not require refrigeration. I have used it because of that, but never saw anything about that anywhere else. I think what you mentioned about the patent is a reference to that- not sure. Anyway, nice to see that it may be correct. :)
 
Can you measure your KH now? It most likely is low. So you know that nitrite and nitrate are acidic, and because they are constantly being produced, the pH of your aquarium will decrease over time.

If your KH (carbonate hardness) is low or non-existent, then nothing can neutralize these acids. This is one reason to make water changes, to bring that buffer up or by adding some sodium bicarbonate or Alkalinity Up to slowly raise the alkalinity up to 6.8-7.0 or to wherever you need it to be for your fish species.
Here are the most current params as of 6pm PST.
Amon .5
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0
PH 6.0
Temp 74.8
Screenshot_20240902_185221_Gallery.jpg
I also tested KH. The below pic is 1drop, 2drops and 3drops. I'm not sure
exactly what this means so if I could get some direction, it would be much appreciated!😊
Screenshot_20240902_185054_Gallery.jpg
 
Feeling soooo defeated right now!:/ My poor babies are not happy. This morning ALL of them were active swimming around in CONSTANT search of a snack 😋. And now... I'm looking at little white specks scattered around just sitting on top of black sand. And the Dojos looking like cut up noodles lol. Of course I don't have my glasses on, it's a miracle I can see anything!
Anyway, please let me know what I need to do. I know alot of this hobby is about "hurry up and wait" but I just feel so helpless...
 

Most reactions

Back
Top