Creating The Perfect Fish

[Synirr]

But I'm not convinced that the level of aggression that domestic Betta splenden exhibit is natural or only related to survival of the species. I suspect that their aggression is enhanced from the wild natural state (just like the massive tails that would not be conducive to survival in the wild) by selective breeding over hundreds and hundreds of years. They can not really be compaired to wild Betta splenden.

Exactly. Of course bettas are territorial, and this is vital to their survival in the wild, but wilds are not territorial or aggressive to the same extent domestic splendens are. A pair of wilds living together in the same tank are not likely to constantly attack one-another (in the splendens complex, at least.) It's possible, but not likely. A pair of domestic splendens in the same tank are likely to rip one-another to shreds, if not kill one-another. It's possible they won't, but more than likely they will. That's the difference, and it's entirely man-made.

Personally, I love the fact that bettas are volatile. I actually like having to keep them all individually; it adds a challenge and flavour to their keeping. However, I don't think it would be an awful idea to breed some of that aggression out that has been bred in. Not something I'd do, personally, but not a terrible idea. What would be a terrible idea would be trying to make them something they are not -- a peaceful species. Dogs are not solitary, cats are not pack animals, and bettas are not a social species. Trying to change them into one would alter them beyond recognition, I imagine, and what's the point in changing a species into something it's not when other species are readily available to fill that niche?

 

[wuvmybetta]

We're way off topic, but...it's my fault.

Here's a segment from Plakat Thai, a very interesting read if you can get over the idea of betta fighting as you read it.These are wild caught smaragdina that they speak of. They catch them, and fight them, then put them back. Who bred this aggression or fighting nature, if you will, into them? It's natural.

The northeast part of Thailand favors Betta smaragdina, especially the provinces that are connected to the river Khong, at the Thai/Lao border. These breeders preserve the tradition of fish fighting as a joyous after- work activity. There is no reason to breed for commercial purposes, or if any very few do. The fish are caught in the wild and exchanged among close friends. The fish are freed back to the rice fields after the games are over.

Betta smaragdina does less “swinging” in its body to push away its opponent (in Thai we call this “tec” or kicking) compared to Betta splendens, which try to push the opponent in order to make them lose control. The Betta smaragdina fight is more artistic and has more style-almost like traditional wrestling, a playing game not aimed at killing or injury. After the game neither fish is injured very much. They will return to their normal condition after the fight without any assistance from medicines.

My personal favorite part..

The philosophy when breeding Betta smaragdina is “to preserve the characteristics of fighting stock to be as close as possible to its original form, first found in the wild.” To accomplish this, breeders try to simulate the Betta smaragdina’s natural habitat by releasing the fry back to specific locations in the wild. The breeder will secretly release the fry at night because he doesn’t want his opponents to find the source of his fighters. The opponent might catch one of your fish and use it against you. The wild environment slowly trains the human bred Betta smaragdina to be the real wild toughened fighter. From the struggles for life, to living with various predators, this time in the wild gradually teaches the green fighter how to defend its territory and fight. Only the strongest survive. The weak shall die. This is the process of natural selection. The wild environment will shape its structure to be as close as possible to its ancestors. The only difference being that they are not naturally selected bloodlines; they are human controlled bloodlines. More precisely they are a hybrid of Betta smaragdina and Betta splendens. They are like Arnold in Terminator, the new strain. The super selected fighter.

http/www.plakatthai.com/smarag.html


I honestly do love them for being as aggressive as they are. I like aggro fish. The bigger,the better. But the betta has the same attitude rolled into one little, awesome fish.

and what's the point in changing a species into something it's not when other species are readily available to fill that niche?

Indeed =)

 

[Synirr]

The Betta smaragdina fight is more artistic and has more style-almost like traditional wrestling, a playing game not aimed at killing or injury. After the game neither fish is injured very much. They will return to their normal condition after the fight without any assistance from medicines.

That's kinda the point I was trying to make... they're aggressive and territorial to an extent all on their own, but it's not so much a "game" for domestic splendens, and fighters in particular. I've read that fights between wild bettas last about 30 minutes at the most before there's a clear victor, whereas fish from fighting lines will fight for hours on end. I think the pic on this page says it all, really.... the loser isn't going to be able to return to normal condition without meds... maybe not even with them!
All domestic splendens, even fancy HMs, descend from fighter lines. All I'm saying is that most of them retain some of that enhanced aggression, even if that's no longer what they are being bred for, and that there's a difference between their behaviour and the behaviour of wild fish.

Edit: I just noticed something funny on the link you posted, Wuv... does anyone see a problem with this image?

Hmmm, 75% Betta smaragdina and 12.5% splendens... what do you suppose the other 12.5% is?

 

[jollysue]

"The only difference being that they are not naturally selected bloodlines; they are human controlled bloodlines. More precisely they are a hybrid of Betta smaragdina and Betta splendens. They are like Arnold in Terminator, the new strain. The super selected fighter"

This is from Wuv's quote. I believe this says that the fish have been selectively bred. They were THEN taken to the wild to be conditioned. "They are like Arnold in Terminator, the new strain. The super selected fighter...." The fish being fought are selectively bred.

"To accomplish this, breeders try to simulate the Betta smaragdina’s natural habitat by releasing the fry back to specific locations in the wild. " "The wild environment slowly trains the human bred Betta smaragdina to be the real wild toughened fighter." The human bred Betta: Many so-called wilds may not be wild? Is that what I'm reading here?

Honestly, I am not comfortable with the pictures that Synirr linked.


So what I am reading, lets not be decieved, is that the fish are and have been selectively bred for fighting viciously over hundreds of years. This not their natural selection outcome but an outcome of selective breeding.

We were struggling with this topic before you came along, Wuv. And I was the culprit, I believe. I thought it was applicable to creating the perfect fish and our responsiblities. Hopefully I'm not going to step on another mod's toes.

 

[wuvmybetta]

Hmmm, 75% Betta smaragdina and 12.5% splendens... what do you suppose the other 12.5% is?

12.5% pure trouble?

 

[Synirr]

12.5% pure trouble?

You're understanding that correctly, jollysue. The fish are selectively bred, and releasing them into the wild is part of their training. Splendens fighters are sometimes trained by putting the male in a tank full of females so he has fish to chase all the time to build his strength, but they aren't likely to fight back much so it also builds his confidence. If you want a fish that fights like wild-type, it only makes sense to release it into the wild. Sadly, this practice as well as releasing splendens fighters into the wild after fights results in a lot of hybrid fish in the wild. This is why it is so important that the IBC has a species maintenance program, to make sure we still have lines of pure fish to keep around for future generations

 

[soritan]

This probably isn't a very good, on topic kinda comment...

Several months ago, someone came upon a "smart fry", which I think was smaller than the others. They publicly mused aloud they thought of breeding "smart bettas", which actually really interested me, since the most charming trait of all my bettas (for me), isn't their gorgeous finnage, it's their awareness of my presence. I'd had other fish before, but they were in their own little fishy world and couldn't be buggered to notice me unless it was feeding time. At around that same time someone posted they *thought* of breeding smart bettas, I had discovered a little article whose topic was the training of a single male betta to travel through a series of rings and follow a red light on cue. That totally fascinated me. It's a shame that person never followed through on their little idea.

 

[jollysue]

Jeez Louise! Synirr!

And soritan: now this is so cool! I think the topic is creating the perfect fish. This could make my fishy list of interests.

 

[soritan]

Actually, in retrospect (or perhaps, more accurately, on second thought, and with a more usual taint of cynicism), probably the reason why bettas are so much more aware of me, is their territorial nature.

" WHO GOES THERE?? (oh! food!)"

 

[jollysue]

Ha! Another professional cynic! Of course, your Betta wubs yu....

Actually very analytic, but I think we have a symbiotic relationship that has been selectively bred in over hundreds of years by Thai breeders. It was one of the characteristic instinics of the wild Betta that was reinforced by human breeders by conditioning with larvae in girly tanks before fighting them.

Ok I'm getting silly now.

 

[SRC]

I had discovered a little article whose topic was the training of a single male betta to travel through a series of rings and follow a red light on cue.

You do realize you can get your fish to do this as well, right?

All you have to do (for the ring part) is get your fish use to having you close to it. Spend alot of time poking your fingers at the fish, get it use to yhe presence of your hands near it. After a while it won't care that you are close...stick the ring in front and it will swim through it, it's like teaching a dog to "sit" it takes repitition.


All you have to do (for the red light part) is purchase a laser pointer. Most any fish (not just a betta) will follow that red dot, once they realize it's there...they think it's food. I use one to play with my fish when I'm bored. Just don't shine it in their face..I'm pretty sure if it's not good for our eyes it wouldn't be for theirs either.

 

[lljdma06]

That's so funny

Wow, instead of a flea circus, we'll have an underwater betta circus. Now I know one of you is going to Letterman with this for his "Stupid Pet Trick" segment.

 

[Synirr]

soritan, if the person you're talking about is on this forum, I think the person you're talking about might have been me
A while back I posted a thread about breeding bettas based on their "intelligence" (or at least their awareness of things going on around them) and also posted a link to a site on how to teach a betta to do tricks. The fish I talked about in that thread is Mini, who is of course smaller than the others. If it wasn't me, then all I can say is great minds think alike, haha.
I did breed Mini, and while I don't think I'll be breeding specifically for intelligence in the near future, the more aware fish are always my faves, and I'm more likely to breed my faves

 

[soritan]

It could have definately been you (the name 'mini' especially sounds familiar), but I know I found the article myself on google, as I was in full resarch mode for a good month before I got my first betta. I had read opinions and articles and reviews and visited stores and breeders and forums until I was blue in the face, before I got my first betta. I had that article and another very simmilar one bookmarked in a big old favorites folder simply labeled "aqua", because I was still debating my own ability to keep a betta.

If it wasn't me, then all I can say is great minds think alike, haha.

(At last! An equal!)

I know I could train the fish myself, much like I could train my two cats myself.... and I'd probably achieve the same end result. ) I mentioned it because I thought it was interesting to have a fish with an *aptitude* for that sort of thing, versus a 'standard' betta who is simply capable of it with hours worth of hard labor on my part and twice the amount of daily cursing. Although, I doubt I'd even train a betta if I were given a Super Brain Betta, I'd probably sit with it and talk about Kerouac's grammar and wonder at the state of the world.

 

[ral]

I remember a post awhile back about using Betta's to manipulate mechanical arms located outside their tanks.

Work in progress:

Than Betta agression might be a more serious matter