Creating The Perfect Fish

[ral]

Some Betta Splenden's are bred as fighters. They are bred to have a large mouth, hough scales and the like. Most of our fish are bred for color or finnage. I have both types. They are both equally aggressive, though my colorful fish are less capable of inflicting serious damage. All betta's are fighters... some are just bred to be more physically capable fighters.

Betta's splenden's and other bubble betta bubble nesters depend on securing a territory for their own to breed. Their being territorial is just a part of the way they breed IMHO.

 

[jollysue]

Sure, ral, the fish is territorial. But neither of us "knows" what selective breeding will do. It is just our opinions until it is proved. The fish is still being selectively bred for aggressive behavior is my point as well as for fighting. You have actually made my point.

Our betta splendens do not depend on anything but us to breed, as they are not in the wild in their present form.

 

[ral]

Our colorful plakats and longfins have been bred for appearance. And most of the ones we have, are probably several generations removed from their natural condition. They are still a aggressive bunch despite generations of having been bred not for fighting.

Initially, fighters were not bred.... they were simply caught, and than returned to the wild after a fight and some period of healing.

You can condition a fish to make it more agressive. And if you will take your plakat to a fight you will still have to condition him to be more aggressive than he already is.

It does seem that the B. Splenden's is the most aggressive of the bunch.

 

[splashluff]

I totally understand your point, Jollysure. But, I completely disagree with trying to change an animal's natural instincts just for convenience. Male Bettas are aggressive, solitary fish, for the sake of their own survival. Whether people were breeding them as fighters or not, they'd still be aggressive. It isnt a question of IF they'll kill or maim each other, it's WHEN. Breeding out their aggressiveness would change everything! Their spawning habbits would change, and they'd probably be extremely difficult to spawn. Would they flare as beautifully as they do now? Would finnage and quality be sacrificed for a peaceful fish? I'm totally happy with Bettas as they are, as they naturally should be.

This reminds me of how people try to alter breeds of dog that naturally have that instinct and have had it for 100's or 1000's of years. I meet a lot of people who meet my dog and ask about where they should go to get a Border Collie (or German Shepherd, or any other herding dog) with no-low herding drive. The answer is - NO WHERE. Good breeders would not breed to dilute the instinct of their animals, they breed to enhance and better them. Just like breeding Border Collies who will not herd is unnatural and irresponsible, so is breeding Bettas that won't flare or fight.

I also totally agree withSynirr, about the heavy finnage thing ... Judges would definitely pick a proportionate, clean shorter-finned HM over a HM with extremely heavy finnage that weighs him down. It's not about length as much as it is about shape, proportion and health.

 

[jollysue]

I agree, ral, they are an agressive and territorial fish. But are they really being bred to minimize or maximize this trait? If the beauty shows for the betta emphasize the aggressive behaviors as aggressive behaviors, then it is still being perpetuated. I don't know how the genetic code for flaring is connected to fighting and territoriality and whether it could be separated and retained in some other connection.

Fishluff, I respect your desire to keep your bettas the way they are.

However, I am not that big of a purist. While I would want to maintain a pure base stock and certainly a species for you that appeals to you, I am not above tampering.

I like my corn plump, juicy and yellow. I have no desire to go back to wild maze. I like my Yorkshire Terrior, bred to chase yard vermin. But he is the cousin of the pit bull, which is not the same kind of animal. Again consider the Thoroughbred or Trotter and the Quarter horse. They are both derived from selectively breeding the Arabian. But one can not do the other's task.

My Uncle Reese used to develop the most wonderful peaches and nectarines (not a natural fruit BTW, but a cross between the plum and the peach.) I am not a purist. I like nectarines. I don't want to herd sheep with wolves. We are hobbiests. If we breed then we are husbandmen and must give account.

 

[ral]

Synirr's example is a much more reasonable fish. A halfmoon plakat fins is relatively small compared to any non-plakat halfmoon. Even a halfmoon with a small tail would have a tail 3-4 large than the betta was originally intended to have.

Maybe with better maintenance I could keep the halfmoons well through their entire life. But all three of our full 180 halfmoons did not do so well once they got past one year.

 

[jollysue]

That is just plain sad. I will not buy another long, heavy finned betta.

I am already grieving my poor Samson. He will need to be a Samson. He is well named.

 

[ral]

A lot of us here have have problems with our halfmoons... but don't grieve yet. Could be the quality of our water. Would be interesting if other halfmoon owners have had better luck.

 

[jollysue]

ral, did you comment on the use of the term plakat as applied to all spendens in Asia? I have posted a reply by the boy that I got my "yellow long fin plakat" from which caused such a ruckus. I thought you might be inerested.

 

[lljdma06]

This is an interesting and well-handled thread. Points have been made that are very relevant and I believe that in the next few decades, breeders, judges, and fish-keepers will be making decisions regarding the future look of betta splendens. I already see a trend towards keeping plakat bettas, though it'll be quite some time before VTs and the other long-finned varieties are replaced with them in petstores. They probably won't even replace them, but they'll be at least displayed with equal footing.

In the meantime, we can only do what we are doing now, provide our bettas, whether HM or plakat with the best care possible.

The long-finned bettas in my past have all lived long, healthy lives, but I have only kept VTs until recently.

Of the bettas I keep now, I have only lost one, a HM. Now my other HM also seems to be having issues that my other bettas just don't have. Even my CTs, who have huge fins and Gunther who is all fins, swim much easier than my HMs ever did. I enjoy all my tail varieties, and all of them have their advantages and disadvantages. It will be interesting to note who dies last of my group. Or who has the least amount of health problems.

I think breeding bettas should be about breeding the best-looking fish possible with the best health. I think Synirr hit the nail on the head when she displayed pictures of two HM. I agree that the 1st one is a far better specimen to the other, eventhough it has shorter fins.

Now, should we change a breed into something that it's not? I have a disappointing answer. We have been doing this with other species for thousands of years, including bettas. We breed for consumption, appearence, and utility. If we all of the sudden stopped doing that, we would be doing something that as humans, is definitely against our nature. It is our nature to manipulate our environment to suit our needs. We just have to make sure that when we manipulate a species to our advantage, we then assume responsiblity for the correct care and management of that species. As responsible betta owners, I'm sure our fish are well-cared for and live out full lives.

I will quit rambling now, as I am currently stuck in my apartment with a nasty chest cold and will be adding my lousy 2 cents worth to a great many posts today. Be prepared for a massive post count.

 

[jollysue]

Well said and logical, Iljdma. I look forward to time to catch up on your ramblings.

 

[fawnmodel]

I personally feel that plakats and females are just as beautiful as long finned fish, and can even be more so. But it is a personal preference, and those more popular will be more 'common' for lack of a better term.

I also agree that a good looking, well-balanced fish is more desirable than one with way too heavy finnage. Although I do keep halfmoons, I do not make it a habit of keeping fish with overbranching, feather tails or anythign toooo flowly. Its bad for the fih IMO, it makes it hard to swim and they do blow their tails.

Alot of breeders are also breeding here and there to plakats, to keep the more desireable FLAT fan-shapped halfmoon that HM plakats have - over the flowly messy too heavy over-branched fins.

Its all subjective tho, it is a beauty thing, and of course, these fish ARE bred for their aesthetic appeal. They are not bred to be a perfect version of a wild fish - though I do admire those that breed to keep a wild strain true.
**btw if you see my boy Voodoo in my avatar its an older pic but still..... he also has an anal fin that is considered a 'fault'. The breeder I got him from actually breeds really great hm imho. But, genetically they tend to have a longer anal. It is something I am looking at breeding out (perhaps using plakats). Other than the ama; issue I love his fish.... as they have FANTASTIC finnage and the right amount of branching etc. He is not concerned with the anals and has bred them that way for 20 years. So again, it depends on what you are seeking with your fish. Also this line has amazing nestcare! both male and female which I find a great quality for breeding!**

 

[jollysue]

I was just thinking of the practice of foot binding in old China. The practice was to bind a girl's feet to make them smaller, as it was considered to be a mark of beauty. Of course common field working girls probably couldn't do it much, because they had to actually use their feet.

The women's feet were deformed and twisted into tiny spaces.

Now that reminds me of high heels. The pressure that is put on women in the West to wear spiked heels, throwing the whole body off kilter and assuring foot problems with age is a minor peeve of mine.

Balance and function combined with asthetics are a much nicer measure for beauty, IMO.

 

[lljdma06]

Now that reminds me of high heels. The pressure that is put on women in the West to wear spiked heels, throwing the whole body off kilter and assuring foot problems with age is a minor peeve of mine.

Balance and function combined with asthetics are a much nicer measure for beauty, IMO.

I totally agree!

Still love wearing high heels, though. But I only wear them when I have to look nice. Other than that it's tennis shoes for me!

I am grossly off topic, and to be more off-topic, I have finished with some Hot and Sour soup, some Chinese BBQ ribs, and now I'm on an eggroll. This is all part of my "Cure my Nasty Chest Cold Regimen" using time-honored Chinese methods. I will be eating continuosly throughout the day. Yummy to my tummy.

 

[ral]

jollysue, I used Plakat in the way we have commonly come to use the term to refer to a short finned betta. We refer to a shortfinned halfmoon as a halfmoon plakat and a longfinned one as a halfmoon.

Your use of the term plakat is actually more correct as all Betta Sp. are "plakats".

Short finned betta - Plakat morh

Long finned betta - Plakat cheen

Plakat actually means fighting fish or more correctly biting fish.

Most of the long finned betta's are relatively new. Lately, the halfmoon plakat (plakat morh) has been more popular with hobbyist. In the recently concluded fish show last week, short finned entries outnumbered the long finned once (halfmoons and crowntails). Most of the shortfins were halfmoons though.

There was also a distributor selling Betta's and he had a new product line... the short finned crowntail (what they call the crowntail plakat).