Creating The Perfect Fish

[splashluff]

hrm. I guess it IS more practical for Bettas to have short fins in the wild, but my Bettas aren't too worried about other males and predators sneaking into their tank and ripping up their long tails, like wild Bettas would be. ... My HM has absolutely no problems swimming, he's a more active and powerful swimmer and flarer than any of my fish and I believe he has a few years to come before he passes away. My last Betta was also a near 180*, and he lived over 3 years without any illnesses at all. That's just my experience, I love Plakats and ESPECIALLY HM Plakats, but I still prefer my flowy long-finned boys.

Also, again, about breeding docileness into Bettas ~ what would happen to their spawning rituals? I have heard from very, very experienced breeders that they have given up trying to spawn any docile Bettas because they simply don't perform, it either takes them several days to spawn and it's not too successful, or they don't spawn at all. My super aggro pair took 12 hours to spawn and successfully had 400 fry! The fact is, Bettas are not and should not be schooling fish.

 

[Synirr]

Ok, Synirr, I think I get the point you were making: "Here are examples of community betta tanks. Now you have seen."

Yeah, that's exactly what I meant. Just pointing it out for the sake of observation

Some Betta Splenden's are bred as fighters. They are bred to have a large mouth, hough scales and the like. Most of our fish are bred for color or finnage. I have both types. They are both equally aggressive, though my colorful fish are less capable of inflicting serious damage. All betta's are fighters... some are just bred to be more physically capable fighters.

Betta's splenden's and other bubble betta bubble nesters depend on securing a territory for their own to breed. Their being territorial is just a part of the way they breed IMHO.

I'm gonna go against what seems to be the popular opinion here and say that Betta splendens as we know them today are not territorial like their wild ancestors.... oh no, they're not just territorial, they're downright vicious, and it is we humans who made them that way. If you keep two male Betta imbellis (which are pretty much identical in their behaviour to wild B. splendens) in a tank together, as long as you give them enough room to form separate territories, they are normally not going to rip one-another to sheds... just a little flare display every now and then before retreating to their separate sides of the tank.

Try this with our domestic B. splendens and you're asking for a bloodbath.

All lines of B. splendens today that haven't come directly out of the wild, be they ornamental or fighters, come from fighting lines. This aggression is perpetuated in ornamental fish by show standards -- they can be completely disqualified from show if they don't flare. Trying to breed aggression out of them would be a tricky process, because the territorial qualities of their nature are important for their breeding rituals, and it's nearly impossible to differentiate between territorialness and excess aggression. If you want docile bettas, the best bet would be to start from scratch with wild splendens or imbellis. Sure, it would take you hundreds of years to recreate the variety of colours and fin types we have in today's splendens, but so long as you weren't selectively breeding for aggression, it's possible you could end up with fish that have the same temperament as wild bettas.

 

[jollysue]

As usual, Synirr, you win my admiration for your form, function, and asthetic: A real show winner. You have strong opinions without being opinionated. You listen to all issues in a debate or discussion and give your input with grace, knowledge, and logic. When you speak, about Betta at least, people listen, not because you yell, but because you reason. You are not drowning out the sound of others with the sound of your own voice and opinions.

You are a good example and mentor. You are one of the assets that make this a popular forum.

hehe Just pushing the merchandise.

 

[ral]

I really like this forum. In any other forum a post like this would be bait for a flame war. Here we can discuss like adults.

 

[OohFeeshy]

What I was going to add yesterday, before the power cut out, is that the long finnage problem is why I´m looking to create lines of fancy pk´s, ie. CTPK.

 

[Elise]

Yeah, I've come to love plakats for the fact that they don't look tired when swimming. My poor wittle Allie hates to swim because of his heavy tail. But I wuv him anyway!

I do love the look of heavy fins, but honestly, I don't think that now that I've thought about it, I wouldn't breed a heavy finner. It's not fair to the fishies.

I think that probably unexperienced breeders are the ones who breed for excessive tail.

 

[ral]

We had a fish show last week. A distributor had a whole set of short finned crowtail plakats. My girlfriend got to like one, and I bought it for her.

 

[lljdma06]

Synirr, as always, well said, and I agree. My imbellis are a case in point. Two males share a 15g without any problems. They actually hang out together. Now would I try this with Hunding and Froh, "No way Jose!!!!!" They would kill each other and my harlequins would get to watch a live death match. That would just be bad on so many levels.

 

[RandomWiktor]

I share everyone's sentiments; I love to read Synirr's posts.

I do warn that I haven't read the entirety of this thread, as its long and I am pressed for time, but I will say this:
I do think that the various tail types in bettas are gorgeous. However, I view heavily finned fish the way I see brachecephalic dogs and cats, meat pigs, curly-feathered pigeons, and small hooved horses; the breeding of these animals is too great a deviation for the design plan of their species' body, and as a result, we get animals whose physical traits give them something of a disability. I can not really condone the breeding of animals who can not lead a semi-normal life because their own bodies fail them. When I compare how my plakats, or even my female betta, move and act compared to my male VTs, I feel almost guilty for having bought the latter. They are at such a great disadvantage because of the stress the fins put on their bodies. It seems sad that they need to be confined, kept without a filter, etc. because the every day act of merely moving is so taxing on their bodies. My shorter finned VTs act so dramatically better than the ones with large fins, and are vastly more mobile. And the plakats, well geeze! I don't think I've ever seen such an active fish before, those guys never stop moving. I almost feel bad I don't have them in a bigger tank.
In short, in my mind, a fish who can not enjoy its life because it can not swim properly is like breeding a horse who can't run, a dog who can't rough and tumble, a bird who can't fly (don't be a wisearse; I know penguins, kiwis, and ratites can not), or an monkey that can not climb. It takes away a very important natural behavior, and in addition, is known to put undue stress on the body.

Also, I do feel that as breeders, looks should NEVER be the sole consideration in choosing breeding animals. Health, utility, form, etc. should all be a part of it. Again, going back to cats, I am disgusted by american persian breeders for making peke-faced persians. Persians were allready a flat-faced breed; the american variant of the breed goes a step further and makes the face indented. The poor animals can hardly eat or drink water. Not ethical, in my mind.

 

[jollysue]

It was a stimulating discussion and worth reading or at least skimming or scanning. Maybe there's more to say.

UhOh! MBS has struck: Crowntail Plakat?

 

[ral]

Will try to get a picture. Yup, its a short finned crowntail. They had about two dozen in a vairety of colors.

 

[Synirr]

Aw shucks jollysue, you flatter me )

I do love the look of heavy fins, but honestly, I don't think that now that I've thought about it, I wouldn't breed a heavy finner. It's not fair to the fishies.

I feel the exact same way. I bought Gilarion as a breeder, but he has a lot of trouble getting around and I don't think I could stand to have a tank full of babies like that. He also blows his fins all the time. He's in a 2.5 gallon vase with no filter so no current, a single silk plant, and smooth stones as substrate, but he still tears his tail somehow. I think the only way to prevent it would be to keep him in a completely bare tank, and I just can't do that to him. He usually rests at an angle because his fins weigh him down so much.

I do love the flowery look of his finnage though, I'd go so far as to call him a rosetail, but not as dramatic as some I've seen. I'd be interested in breeding rosetail plakats, or even rosetail CT plakats, just to see how that would look! . The copper black plakat male from the pair I bought at the show has 8 or 16 rays, and it's amazing to see.

I hope the photographer doesn't mind me posting this, but here's a pic of a CT plakat I have saved on my comp as an example:

 

[jollysue]

Ok, now I'm waiting for pics of crowntailplakats. I wand babies!

Hope I'm not late to work--again.

Bye till later.

 

[ral]

Here is another Halfsun. This one they were selling locally last month.

 

[nino]

WOW. I would love one of those crowntail plakats. Gonna go check aquabid right now!