Creating The Perfect Fish

[jollysue]

Achh!! I'm out of tanks! Back to the bowls! and AB/Aqua Bid! Whee!! We deserve a treat after all our work at saving the whole Betta splendens race.

Synirr, while you may be flattered; it was flattering; but it was not flattery.

 

[OohFeeshy]

Hopefully I should end up with 100% CTPK outcome in about 4 spawns? 1st is to get PK, secon PK and CT, third two from there and lastly PKCTxPKCT. I´m after some wildy reddy ones.

 

[JackDemp528]

I agree with what RW said. These breeders keep breeding for smaller, nastier, bigger, or for other certain traits but never think about the animal's health. These bettas with huge fins must have a terrible time getting around. just imagine having enormous weight hanging off of us and trying to get around. Or how they keep breeding dogs to be smaller. Like this new mini German Shep. breeding trend. We've gotten a few in at the shelter and they all have health problems. And seem to be very awkward with the whole getting around thing. I just wish breeders would stop and think about the animal they're breeding whether than the money that they're going to be making from the animal.

 

[jollysue]

A snowball's chance....for SOME breeders not ALL thankfully.

Sounds like you have a fortunate girlfriend, ral.

 

[wuvmybetta]

I agree with what RW said. These breeders keep breeding for smaller, nastier, bigger, or for other certain traits but never think about the animal's health. These bettas with huge fins must have a terrible time getting around. just imagine having enormous weight hanging off of us and trying to get around. Or how they keep breeding dogs to be smaller. Like this new mini German Shep. breeding trend. We've gotten a few in at the shelter and they all have health problems. And seem to be very awkward with the whole getting around thing. I just wish breeders would stop and think about the animal they're breeding whether than the money that they're going to be making from the animal.

That's how I feel about the dreaded "line breeding" in bettas, but only to a certain point. By the time these fish start to look like the breeders goal, they're terribly overbred and ill proportioned. A long finned betta is, quite frankly, very unattractive to me. They are indeed beautiful and all that, but I also find them to be a huge turn-off.

uhhhm, mini german shepards?!

 

[wuvmybetta]

I was pondering on what some of you have said about aggression being bred into them. This could be *somewhat* true, but don't doubt the species. They are indeed aggressive by nature. Having the wilds here with me for the past week has given me the opportunity to sit and watch them closely as they interact. In one 10 gallon I had the last two remaining changrai males and they were not at all "nice" to each other, I had to seperate them. One built a nest and constantly picked on the other. The smaragdina- two males, four females. One male killed the other. Fact. In a twenty gallon.
The imbellis are seemingly nippy and the mahachai are pretty laid back so far. I had one Simplex male in a bag, the other in a tank, I simply floated the bag in the tank for a minute and they clearly were ready to duke it out.
All the complexes are different but I do feel the splendens complex is very aggressive by heart.

 

[ral]

A snowball's chance....for SOME breeders not ALL thankfully.

Sounds like you have a fortunate girlfriend, ral.

I am fortunate to have her too.

I don't think longfins will ever go away... they are probably made the betta as popular as it is today. But we humans seem to be hard to satisfy. We created a great looking delta, and a gorgeous super delta and than came the halfmoon... and we are pushing the envelop further with the OHM/HMX. In doing so we are changing the standards of what is a "good fish." With some breeders now, everything that isn't a halfmoon is culled.

I don't think longfins should not be bred, but maybe competition standards should be changed so that a Super Delta or Delta isn't considered to be a "defective fish". Maybe a standard of functional beaty as opposed to the more is better approach we are taking now.

If competition standards made the 120 degrees or something the perfect size for Delta/SD/HM fin type... well, anyway I am now repeating myself already

 

[wuvmybetta]

If competition standards made the 120 degrees or something the perfect size for Delta/SD/HM fin type...

That will never happen. They'd want a full 360 before then (ha...ha?)

ETA~ A super delta is not that huge of a fault though.

 

[jollysue]

I have a small colony of scarlets. The mod at a badis-dario group has convinced me to breed a male to the 3 or 4 females in the colony. He says to put the girls in a breeding tank first before the male and give them time to set up their hiding places. After the eggs are laid, the daddy scarlet takes over. He sets a territory and will kill viciously everything with in it's boundaries, including the mom, to protect the eggs and fry.

Now I find out. I HAVE to get the females at least out of the community dwarf tank or risk a Texas Chainsaw Massacre (with my appologies to Synirr, Wuv and all Texans--including my grandma) with little pygmy and panda cory bodies floating around, not to mention the dustup when he squares off with the bad boy of the tank "The Orange Flash."

Well it seems unreasonable, vicious brutality is not unheard of, Wuv, in the fish world. But until the instinct is triggered with the laying of eggs they are nice little fellows and live peacefully with their mates. I see oscars kill everything that is vulnerable to them. They don't seem angry just always hungry. I gather puffers are unpredictable killers and pirhana.

I'm inclined to think, though, that your native wilds have triggers too. Most likely its the female and territory. But as Synirr suggested, this is a step past territorial mating behavior. It's brutal and vicious. and it doesn't seem to me to be conducive to the propagation of the species. I'm inclined to think that total unreasoned brutality is not a good characteristic for species' survival.

 

[splashluff]

Jollysue, it does make sense, but to me aggression IS a part of the animal world. I think wild Bettas did a pretty good job of surviving and thriving in the past 100's of years (except for people catching them... which is unavoidable). If a wild Betta was not excessively territorial, his territory would be constantly invaded by other males and females, and he'd probably end up losing it. Thats just IMHO. Countless other solitary animals are also highly territorial because they NEED that territory to successfully feed, thrive, and raise theri kiddos. ALL Wild Cats (except for Lions, only to a certain extent), for instance, are extremely territorial! They will kill a male or female enroaching on their territory, unless it's a female in heat. They do this to guard food resources and to display dominance and breeding rights, just like Bettas!! Tigers, like Bettas, are not community or herd animals ~ their breeding and feeding instincts require an established territory of their own... and they survive pretty well with overly territorial instincts.

 

[jollysue]

Splashluff, since you addressed me specifically, I want to say, I absolutely agree with you. Many animals in the wild are extremely territorial and guard their territories fiercely, as I indicated in my prior responses.

But I'm not convinced that the level of aggression that domestic Betta splenden exhibit is natural or only related to survival of the species. I suspect that their aggression is enhanced from the wild natural state (just like the massive tails that would not be conducive to survival in the wild) by selective breeding over hundreds and hundreds of years. They can not really be compaired to wild Betta splenden. Most do not behave the way they do because it was naturally selected by survival of the species in the wild.

Please compare:

Natural Selection VS Selective Breeding

I believe the only survival domestic Betta splenden are adapting to is that of their breeders, as I have stated before.

Now as we already discussed, I am not a purist and don't have a problem with selective breeding to get what I want and think is good for the breed to benefit me. I have had trouble pinpointing where you are on the scale though, as you have endorsed selective breeding and condemned selective breeding in the same paragraph or at least response previously. I suspect that you like things the way they are and whatever it takes to keep them the same is what you endorse. It is not a systematic philosophy or one that is easily responded to.

I'm not sure if you are trying to convince me or figure out what you believe. For me a discussion is an attempt to gain and share some enlightenment upon a matter. It is brainstorming. It is not important who is right or wrong, it is important to sketch a more detailed and broader picture so all can see clearer for themselves.

We all come to a discussion with fundamental perspectives: au priori assumptions. These assumptions will determine what picture we will walk away with. If I believe in an almighty creator who loves me, my picture painted with the facts will be different than the picture using the same facts painted by someone who believes there is no god and the universe is malevolent. This is basic to philosophy and therefore every science.

If you believe the splenden is perfect the way it is and are not interested in exploring that belief, then any discussion is effectively superfluous.

 

[splashluff]

hrm... I guess you're right. I haven't thought too extensively about breeding aggression out of Bettas, because I ENJOY having nice seperate domains for my boys (and most of my girls), and I DO enjoy Bettas as they are.

I don't know where exactly I contradicted myself. Pretty much, I said that I love my Splendens the way they are, as to your suggestion of breeding aggression out of the species. I also believe that altering their aggression would also have a HUGE impact on every aspect of their behavior and spawning rituals! I thought that in your last post you were insinuating that excessive territorial behavior isn't good for the survival of Bettas ("I'm inclined to think that total unreasoned brutality is not a good characteristic for species' survival.") sooo I was just giving an example of how MANY animal species are super territorial and can be vicious if it means protecting their survival... even us perfect humans can be excessively brutal about what's ours!

Anyway, you have a good point about the excessive aggression bred in to domestic Bettas. If you want peaceful Bettas, by all means start going for it now and maybe next century all male Bettas will happily co-exist !! All I was saying, is that I'm partial to liking Bettas as they are... but I still listen to your points and think about them. I don't really understand when you say I shouldn't post if I'm still making up my mind about the topic ~ would you rather I come on here posting with my mind made up already and my eyes totally closed to your opinions? =0)

 

[pica_nuttalli]

this is a step past territorial mating behavior. It's brutal and vicious. and it doesn't seem to me to be conducive to the propagation of the species. I'm inclined to think that total unreasoned brutality is not a good characteristic for species' survival.

two words: fahaka puffer.

i believe the famous quote is "i don't know how they can stand each other long enough to breed". most fahakas, especially males, will go out of their way to kill anything in their tank. fahakas cannot be kept in sight of each other; they will either go mad or bust the glass trying to fight each other. even the Minions' relatively docile fahaka Martha (who is tentatively kept with an armored pleco) cannot have anything on her glass because she keeps trying to kill her reflection. fahakas are famous tank-busters who will break out in just attempts to attack passers-by.

total unreasoned brutality is a completely apt description and is a completely au natural aspect of the fahaka puffer.

 

[jollysue]

I totally understand your point, Jollysure. But, I completely disagree with trying to change an animal's natural instincts just for convenience. Male Bettas are aggressive, solitary fish, for the sake of their own survival. Whether people were breeding them as fighters or not, they'd still be aggressive. It isnt a question of IF they'll kill or maim each other, it's WHEN. Breeding out their aggressiveness would change everything! Their spawning habbits would change, and they'd probably be extremely difficult to spawn. Would they flare as beautifully as they do now? Would finnage and quality be sacrificed for a peaceful fish? I'm totally happy with Bettas as they are, as they naturally should be.

This reminds me of how people try to alter breeds of dog that naturally have that instinct and have had it for 100's or 1000's of years. I meet a lot of people who meet my dog and ask about where they should go to get a Border Collie (or German Shepherd, or any other herding dog) with no-low herding drive. The answer is - NO WHERE. Good breeders would not breed to dilute the instinct of their animals, they breed to enhance and better them. Just like breeding Border Collies who will not herd is unnatural and irresponsible, so is breeding Bettas that won't flare or fight.

I also totally agree withSynirr, about the heavy finnage thing ... Judges would definitely pick a proportionate, clean shorter-finned HM over a HM with extremely heavy finnage that weighs him down. It's not about length as much as it is about shape, proportion and health.

hrm... I guess you're right. I haven't thought too extensively about breeding aggression out of Bettas, because I ENJOY having nice seperate domains for my boys (and most of my girls), and I DO enjoy Bettas as they are.

I don't know where exactly I contradicted myself. Pretty much, I said that I love my Splendens the way they are, as to your suggestion of breeding aggression out of the species. I also believe that altering their aggression would also have a HUGE impact on every aspect of their behavior and spawning rituals! I thought that in your last post you were insinuating that excessive territorial behavior isn't good for the survival of Bettas ("I'm inclined to think that total unreasoned brutality is not a good characteristic for species' survival.") sooo I was just giving an example of how MANY animal species are super territorial and can be vicious if it means protecting their survival... even us perfect humans can be excessively brutal about what's ours!

Anyway, you have a good point about the excessive aggression bred in to domestic Bettas. If you want peaceful Bettas, by all means start going for it now and maybe next century all male Bettas will happily co-exist !! All I was saying, is that I'm partial to liking Bettas as they are... but I still listen to your points and think about them. I don't really understand when you say I shouldn't post if I'm still making up my mind about the topic ~ would you rather I come on here posting with my mind made up already and my eyes totally closed to your opinions? =0)

In my response to Wuv, I did not mention breeding the aggression out of the splendens. I was satisfied where that ended with Synirr. We had all stated our observations and seemed to understand one anothers' points with courtesy and respect. I had taken some observations under advisment to consider and possibly modify my position. No one laughed at anyone or belittled anyone just to win an arguement.

I responded to Wuv's comment about domestic territoriality. My point is that domestic Betta splenden are not behaving naturally but as we have bred them. In your first sentence above you state you disagree with changing the natural instincts for convience. Which is exactly what has happened to the domestic betta splenden, IMO. A few sentences later you endorse enhancing a breed of dogs. We tried at that time to have a discussion about the appropriate uses of selective breeding.

When you and I try to discuss an issue it feels to me like it begins to deteriorate into an illogical argument with just winning at any cost being the point of the excersice. I find those kinds of exchanges exhausting and fruitless.

I'm sorry I have offended you, but our attempts at communication have frustrated me. It feels like playing hard ball, not coffee table discussions for mutual edification. I'm too old for hard ball.

If I understand your major points: You like your Betta splenden. You like them violently aggressive. You want the breeding practices regarding aggression to continue. You consider it foolish and dangerous to change the direction of those breeding practices. Anyone who does not agree with you is wrong at the least, and worthy of ridicule occasionally. Did you want me to understand something else?

My major point to Wuv is that I believe the aggression is far enhanced above the natural level. That the level of aggression in the domestic Betta splenden would endanger their survival in the wild and is therefore clearly not "natural."

I understand that you do not agree. Let me ask, if you put a bunch of male Betta splenden in a tank. Decorate it how you will. No medications are to be used. How many would survive to breed? Please refer to your first sentence above.

 

[jollysue]

I did not say that you should not post (in a discussion for edification) if you are still making up your mind. I said exactly the opposite, splashluff. There is part of the problem with our conversations: miscommunicatuion/misunderstandings. I'm sorry that we have a difficult time communicating. That's why I have tried to avoid this, w/o avoiding you. But when you addressed me to engage me, I had to decide if we could get through this with dignity. I think we can.


Ummm! Of course this is really ral's thread. ) Which we may have murdered. )