Your Views

[chrisbassist]

Can I just add, that while I may not be a believer, I do believe that churches can be a great thing for those that need the extra support and reassurance. (not in any way at all saying that is why people go, just that it's good that those who need it can go)

and maybe they are Christian values we live by, but whose values were they before that?

Maybe my values come from the church, maybe they don't. All I know, is that I've had things stolen, and I don't like it, I've been cheated on, I didn't like that, I'm pretty sure being murdered wouldn't be particularly pleasant, so why would I want to put others through that?

Maybe I'll still go to he'll if it's real, because I don't do it for god. Because the 7 sins seem to be designed to exclude those whoso it for other reasons. You know what I'm PROUD of how I live my life. If that pride putsme in hell, there is no justice.

 

[kaivalagi]

+1 Agreed

If I went to hell then so should god for putting me there...you listening up there

 

[Assaye]

What I can say is that I am not on good terms with deities. Even if one did exist and I could be sure of it, I still wouldn't love or worship it. I firmly believe that a god that is powerful enough to create the world should be able to have created a world that didn't involve the suffering of animals (both human and non-human) and didn't involve the huge environmental destruction we see. I can't understand why it would do that - to teach us something? Is anything worth the huge cost in lives that we see? From my point of view, either god doesn't care about the suffering or is too impotent to solve it. Neither warrant adoration, IMO. Besides, even if there is a mightly deity who created heaven and earth, that's just another creature living it's (possibly infinite) life on the plane of existance.

Do you know why God lets us suffer, and impact the environment? When God made us, he gives us the ability to have free choice. If not, he would be oppressive. Why would someone who loves you, and created you, want to oppress you? They wouldn't. That's the case with God. That is not to say that God is not sympathetic with the suffering. He sent his son to die on the cross! God is with you when your happy and sad, when your in pain or bliss, he is with the animal that's been hit by a car and is slowly dying, he is with the fish when it takes it's last breath. He is there to comfort you. But we have to think about this all the way back to the beginning. When God created the world, there was no sin, death, suffering, anything a long those lines. Everything was perfect. But when man turned his back on God and let sin into his life, that all came tumbling down. Which is why we are in the predicament we are in today. I hope I explained this well enough.

God created me without wings, and thus the ability to fly without machines. I do not have gills, and so cannot breathe underwater. I have a single stomach and cannot eat grass. There are many things I cannot do and many things that I do not even know about, that I might wish for if I did.

And apparently God gave me free will. The freedom to kill, and maim and destroy. He gave humans the single most sickening power in the world. The ability to willfully cause suffering with full knowledge of the consequences of our actions. Of all the powers he has given us and of all the powers he has denied us, why do we get this one?

God knew what he was doing when he created the heavens and the earth. He knew we would screw up and he's have to send his son to his death. He knew exactly how the world would pan out and he knew about all the atrocities humans would commit. And yet he went ahead and did it anyway. It's not free will if he knew we were going to do all these things anyway and chose to design us so that we could and would. That is design - programming. Some say that God gave us free will and did not see what we would do with it. I call that being irresponsible. God essentially created the single most powerful weapon in the history of the earth and "he didn't want to oppress us" isn't an excuse. He created us - he didn't have to create us in the first place if the consequences of creating us were that our free will would cause the damage it had. He is the all powerful deity. He could have found a unoppressive way of giving us a reasonable level of freedom without the inclination to cause damage and suffering. We're already living in a deterministic world, if you believe in an all powerful, all seeing God. Without gimping God's powers, it's pretty hard to object to that. Plus - free will doesn't explain why the non-human aspects of the world are also suffused with suffering.

I'm not knocking the natural world - I think it is beautiful, forest fires and predation included. But I don't think I would want to worship a God who had created it. Respect, maybe. I can respect something without loving it and without wanting it to be with me. What I can't respect is a god that would create humanity in the full knowledge of the consequences of his actions.

So anyway. He might exist but I don't love him.

 

[kribensis12]

Dare I say it, but I think a lot a church goers can be overly righteous as they think they have more of a right to go to heaven than the rest, I am sure if there is a god he won't care and it will be on our actions as human beings alone...otherwise he would be an unjust "ruler" of us all. To say we must pray, read the bible weekly and/or go to church etc to be allowed into heaven is just, as Chris said, scaring people into thinking they have to be part of a church/religion and man's doing.

We actually had a sermon on that recently. Our pastor was telling us how in the Bible it says "all men were created equal in God's sight". I believe that every person on earth is born with the same hope of a bright future, with the same will to live, but in different conditions of which they live. It's true some church goers think they are better than others. I struggle with it, everyone struggles with it. Everyone thinks they are better than someone else. At school sometimes I will meet someone, look at them, judge them, and be default consider myself better than them. That's wrong, and I try to stray from that method all of the time. I think the feeling of being better than another is amplified when you have a covenant with God, as you know who your saviour is, and where you are going after you die. Christians do get the "I deserve heaven more than you" feeling. But then we look back to scripture, and it says (as previously stated) that none is righteous, no not one. Once you have sin in your life, your no better than a mass murderer. He's sinned, you've sinned. End of story. But not only that, the Bible also tells us that all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God. Another example of how we are inadequate and lucky to receive God's love. My God is a personal God, and He wants to have a personal relationship with everyone. If you have no relationship with God, then you go to He'll. If you do, then God will welcome you. I know it sounds harsh, even to me. But God has given people so many chances and so many oppurtunity's and so much proof of his existence, that to deny Him is down right disrespectful. God gives second chances. No matter how many times you mess up, you can be forgiven. It's the beauty of Grace.

 

[chrisbassist]

So how does this god feel about Muslims? Or any other religions for that matter? Because if they are spending their lives worshipping their god (the same as you) surely they are going to hell. Just as in their eyes, YOU are going to hell.

And with so many options, how do you find out which god is the right one? Is it luck? Are Muslims actually created by a different god?

Therein lies my biggest problem with religion.

No doubt being Christian, you believe all those other religions are wrong. Because they believe something different to you. I think the only people who would ever be able to decipher who is right, who is wrong, and what the holy texts mean, would be a non believer. But one with an open mind.

Would the pope take any advice about his religion from a non believer?

 

[kaivalagi]

Well said Chris, man's work not god's, it has to be IMHO.

I can't believe that if I was a good person all my life but didn't believe in god, and it turned out there was a god and heaven and hell, that I would be sent to hell.....if that was the case then sorry but I wouldn't want to believe in such a judgemental god like that even if he did exist anyway...

 

[Betta5]

Isn't it down to if you think gay is a choice? Like, well they are choosing to be that way, so thats why its wrong?

Why is the act of homosexuality wrong in the eyes of christians? Do they care that much what people are doing?

Not digging, trying to understand

Well, yes and no. Back on track, the Devil had his own angels, which can simply toss the thought into your mind to commit a homosexual act, or actually possess you. Not only that, being gay is a choice. I have plenty of gay friends and they think of being gay almost as a taboo, and that's why most of them are like that.

So you arn't even gay, but you can say 100% that its a choice? How would you even know? Thats what I never get, who the hell would choose to be different, and be hated. I KNOW its not a choice, because if it were, I would have defo chosen the easier option and just been straight. Im sure all of those killed for being gay would have also, and those being bullied and beat up because of it would too.

That being said, I find it hard to even have a convo knowing the person believes in god and the devil. I see it the same way as an adult, being dead serious, believing in any other fairytale. I just can't even see how someone could believe something like the bible. How is it different from any other fictional book written?

 

[kaivalagi]

I just can't even see how someone could believe something like the bible. How is it different from any other fictional book written?

Because the bible was written to re-tell what happened, albeit exaggerated over the years I suspect...but it is a telling of what people believed at the time.

You can't disrespect people for believing in what they believe in any more than someone else can disrespect you for your sexuality can you?

I can sympathise with what you are saying about how society in general treats gay people, and more so most religions, but the only way for people to understand is to try and educate them and most importantly forgive them because they are ignorant (and that's coming from an Agnostic)

My wife is dark skinned (Fijian) and we live in Norfolk, I know what it feels like for someone close to me to be judged improperly...it isn't nice but it's no good going off on one either

Have some comfort in knowing that probably most members reading this topic will not accept what Krib's views are on homosexuality...the world is becoming less ignorant but unfortunately the Christian church is always the last to catch up if at all.

 

[Betta5]

Its not that it even bothers me if people think its a choice or not. If they had a sensible argument as to why and not quoting thousands of year old nonsense, I could understand.

But like I say, Its imposible for me to try to debate with someone who believes in it, because its like talking to someone who speaks a different language.

 

[chrisbassist]

I wouldn't worry about it betta5. Krib has his(?) opinion on it. And he is entitled to just that. It doesn't mean it's true, it's just what he believes. And you don't have the right to argue about it any more than he does with your sexuality.

You'll find much worse in life than religious people, at least the religious people will use just words. It's the narrow minded thugs of the world I would be more concerned about. Thankfully the world is (slowly) becoming more tolerant.

I even bet that within 50 years the pope will say how the stuff about homosexuality being a sin was a misinterpretation of the text. For fear of losing followers (and therefore money)

 

[Betta5]

I get what you are saying, but atleased with reguards to sexuality there are actually gay people who can say "Err no, its not a choice", and some random scientific theories that atleased are reasonable. Its not something that even needs to be believed in, debated or questioned. It just is part of life, and part of the animal kingdom. Unlike religion.

 

[chrisbassist]

I did hear something about some research suggesting your sexuality seemed to be decided at a genetic level. Don't suppose you'd know a link to any of the info? It might help krib change his mind about it being a choice.

 

[GAB99]

maybe its like john calvin about that predestination stuff, maybe some people just dont go to heaven, which doesnt seem really fair imo, if thats true at least.

 

[Betta5]

I did hear something about some research suggesting your sexuality seemed to be decided at a genetic level. Don't suppose you'd know a link to any of the info? It might help krib change his mind about it being a choice.

I remember reading into it. I only really touched on it but it was rather interesting. I will see if I can find some of the info just to throw out there.

As for it being a choice, I guess hes about as willing to accept its not, as I am, that there is a god. So its pretty pointless. As I say, I know its not a choice, first hand, 100%, no doubt. No religion can say that much about its validity. I think its even silly to even suggest you have control over such things. Its not like all men, for example, have homosexual thoughts but just choose not to act on them.

If I didn't act on my homosexuality, the only other option would be celibacy, because im sure as hell not going neer a woman lol

Thing is, I could understand the "its the devil putting those thoughts in your head", If I once found women sexually attractive, and then suddenly I found men sexually attractive, but its never been like that.

Maybe im just tainted by the devil.

 

[Assaye]

Oh dear, we've managed to get onto sexuality . . .

It's OK, Betta5, we're both going down to Hades

What I don't understand is why some Christians are so hypocritical about sexuality. There are some vague (and often miss-interpreted) references to male homosexuality being bad and these are quoted over and over again as a reason to believe homosexuality is evil or wrong or whatever. What about eating shrimp? And wearing polyester clothes? And all those other "sinful" things that we've long since decided are OK?