What are you doing today?

[GaryE]

We're predators, and our relationship to other predators and other animals is complicated, I think by a mix of our instincts and theirs. Property is a legal fiction we use to make society run certain ways, and I don't believe I own anything, really. It'll outlast me like I was never here. But I do hold a loose territory, much like a fish does. If the local bobcat wanders through, I tip my hat to him. He doesn't bother me. We had black bears come in 2 years ago and decide a playground would be fun to hang around in, and that was a problem. Physically, they were our equal, and we don't like equals since they can kill us. One was transported to deeper in the woods, and the other, since he'd "trespassed" outside the park, was shot by a cop having fun.

I grew up stalking the rats, cats and squirrels of an urban back alley world, then lived a short time in an area where all non pet life had been killed off. Now I'm up to my chin in "prettier" beasts, with deer everywhere, coyotes passing through, etc. I never really kicked in my hunter instincts the way I might have living in Wyoming. If I needed to hunt and fish like some of my ancestors in Labrador did, I might be good at it. They were, or I wouldn't exist. I never get the urge to buy a rifle and pop the deer in the backyard, but I have zero need to do that. I don't name them either.

My then 4 year old daughter got hunted by 2 jaguars once. We were behind the scenes at a zoo, in the winter quarters, so it was safe. There was a very long plexiglass wall in the back of their enclosure - something the public doesn't see, and the two big cats noticed my daughter straggling behind our group. She never saw them. The cat creep started. I dropped back and casually circled, and they froze. I moved up and they tried to move in. I acted like a quiet, wary big beast, as I'm 6"3 210 pounds, and they responded like I was a bit too much to take on. It lasted for a couple of exchanges, and really made me think. We're used to being cushioned from the reality other animals want to eat our kids, and maybe us.

I'm not going to be like the Belgian immigrant neighbour who tried to cuddle a cute skunk, but I do try to co-exist as much as I can. There's steel grating on the fishroom window screens.

 

[WhistlingBadger]

Your property was the property of the critters we are destroying well before we were even here. It is our human arrogance that makes us believe that we are so much more important than the species we are making extinct. What happens when we finally kill the last predator? The answer is quite likely that we caused our own extinction.

We present ourselves as the top intelligence on mother earth but I consider us one of the least intelligent. What other species other than humans actively strives to destroy the environment that keeps us alive? Ya, we have all kinds of technology but, as a race, we have zero common sense. As a species I kind of consider us humans as a parasite or virus bleeding the life out of our home.

It's true about our property once being wildlife habitat. That's true of all of us. But personally, I won't be inviting bears (or even squirrels) to live in my kitchen. I'm willing to bet you won't either. In my territory, I am more important than them. Simple as that. But that doesn't mean I want them all killed off.

As for killing off the last predator, I don't think it's quite as bad as all that. There was a time when it was, yes, but I believe that, as a species, we've learned. So have the predators. People, as a whole, have come to realize that we want and need those apex predators out there...just not necessarily in our back yard. So maybe it isn't as bad as you think.

For example, we have open season on wolves around here: Outside the wilderness areas and national parks, they can be shot on sight without a license, and I don't know too many hunters who wouldn't love to have some wolf fur to play with. Game and Fish made that rule because wolves were heavily predating livestock, right on the edge of town, and it was becoming a costly and potentially dangerous situation. Anti-hunting groups love to bemoan the fate of those poor, cuddly wolves. But guess what. Despite the hunting, wolf populations in the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem are far, far above the original goal for a sustainable population. And despite the hunting law, I don't know a single hunter who has bagged one. Those critters are SMART. Once they realize they're getting shot at in a certain area, they either leave the area or go nocturnal, get quiet, and quit causing trouble. They're still out there, but they've changed their behavior to fit current realities. Society is content, and even happy, to have them around.

Coyotes have hugely expanded their range despite decades of effort to kill them off. I say good for them. Mountain lions are recolonizing many areas in North America where they were formerly extirpated, despite being hunted in areas where they are common. Again, good for them. As long as they play nice and leave people alone, most people appreciate having them around.

Similar story with grizzlies, except they are still "endangered" (a label largely based on emotion, not science). But they are steadily expanding their range and doing just fine in the USA, not to mention the extremely healthy populations in western Canada and Alaska. Black Bear populations are stable and robust across the lower 48.

Apex predators in North America are doing just fine, overall. Other parts of the world? Maybe not so much, but in Africa and Asia they're learning, and many of them are starting to bounce back. It's too late for Australia's apex predators--they're gone except the dingos. But I worry more about the smaller, less charismatic species that go extinct before anyone notices they are important. We're getting a lot of things right; we're learning. But we can do better.

Wow, that was long, sorry. Brevity isn't my strong point when I'm sick. But this is a really interesting discussion. Jay, Gary, Spartan, I appreciate your thoughts. This is obviously an important topic to all of us, and getting these different points of view is part of finding a solution.

 

[JackGulley]

It’s so weird to me to think that the largest animals in my area are whitetail deer, and the largest predator the occasional coyote. This in a region that once had bison, black bears, wolves, and cougars, not to mention, if you go far back enough, mammoths, ground sloths, and smartcar-sized turtle-armadillos. Not wholly bad or good, just weird.

 

[GaryE]

@JackGulley - Athens Georgia. I didn't know about the loss of all the apex predators, but you sure had an interesting regional music scene 40 years ago...

Around here, we have coyotes, and probably coyote wolf hybrids. They are very wary of humans, and very secretive. I hear them, especially when they have cubs, but I have only seen them out back a couple of times, and always out of the corner of my eye. They're useful for pest control, though I don't like the idea of meeting up with them. It's especially so when you have a puppy, or for people with small dogs.

When we had a suburban house in Montreal, I saw coyotes about 2 km from our door, wandering out of a woodland about the size of a postage stamp. You have to respect their ability to live like ninjas. When we first moved to that area, the stretch of road near where they were would be littered with road killed groundhogs, but in the 2 years before we escaped from the suburbs, I saw none. I think that answered what the food source was, and they had replaced cars as the apex predator along there.

We used to have trouble opening the windows at one of my downtown city centre jobs, as even 3 or 4 stories up, raccoons would poop a lot on the fire escapes. They'd stare in the windows when I was teaching evening classes.

Raccooons, skunks, groundhogs, falcons - it's a little consolation for our destructive ways that they are adapting to the wreck we make of their environments. Humans and rats are way better at these things, but the others are sometimes catching up...

 

[gwand]

One day in the distant future the species that replaces us will have similar discussions. Proton will say, “there was a time when a species called Homo sapien lived in these parts”. Neutron will retort, “Yes. I have heard of them. Homo sapiens are the only known species that triggered their own extinction”.

 

[WhistlingBadger]

One day in the distant future the species that replaces us will have similar discussions. Proton will say, “there was a time when a species called Homo sapien lived in these parts”. Neutron will retort, “Yes. I have heard of them. Homo sapiens are the only known species that triggered their own extinction”.

"Wow, they made lots of ugly stuff that lasts forever, didn't they dad?"
"Yes, Proton, they did."

 

[Oldspartan]

Your property was the property of the critters we are destroying well before we were even here. It is our human arrogance that makes us believe that we are so much more important than the species we are making extinct. What happens when we finally kill the last predator? The answer is quite likely that we caused our own extinction.

We present ourselves as the top intelligence on mother earth but I consider us one of the least intelligent. What other species other than humans actively strives to destroy the environment that keeps us alive? Ya, we have all kinds of technology but, as a race, we have zero common sense. As a species I kind of consider us humans as a parasite or virus bleeding the life out of our home.

Actually my “property” was formerly the property of the strongest critter at a given point in time. That critter harvested others at will and defended his property against other predator trespassers as necessary. I am now that strongest critter. My defense of the property comes in the form social structure called civil law when it pertains to competition from the apex called human. My position of apex on this land allows me to control would be apex predators and prey alike that choose to harvest on it.

Whether we want to admit it or not we are part of the natural world and as such have a natural right that supersedes other critters that is no different than the wolf who devours the rabbit. Like the wolf who over harvests available resources we may do the same. The difference is the wolf moves to another property where he may be opposed by another wolf over ownership. Humans on the other hand may choose to like the wolf migrate, (see borders), or stay and change the property to make it more amenable to their immediate needs, (see clear cutting). I believe if the wolf had that ability he would not move.

The difference is that our intelligence allows us to foresee consequence. Our nature often prevents us from acting on the forseen.

 

[Oldspartan]

Recent example.

I had a tree cutter erase several trees that had grown large and threatening to structures. Those trees housed squirrels and birds. They also provided cover underneath for chipmunks, snakes, rabbits, ticks and other numerous “lesser to me” , critters. My need for a safe garage, workshop, and storage shed superseded their right to the trees.

I am head honcho, of this defined hunk of land, and by right of being the strongest can make changes that suit me.

For those who think this not normal I would challenge them to try entering a bears den unarmed.

 

[Oldspartan]

Sitting here at labcorp to once again feed the vampire they keep in the cellar.

Getting very tired of doctors.

 

[jaylach]

Acquired another freebee from the 'free stuff' table in the lobby of my apartments. We have a table that people leave stuff on that they think others can use but they no longer want.

The end table it is on is on the other side of a chair that is between my tank and the end table. With the tank on one side of the chair and this on the table it just seemed to fit as it has an ocean motif with the dolphin, ship at the bottom and the light house. It holds three candles in glass. It is metal, not plastic. By the weight it MIGHT be pewter but I doubt it. The twisted thing behind is a wrought iron lamp with a purple LED bulb. Oh, the glass bowl to the left is a candy bowl currently filled with Starburst candies.

Other than that I watched my Cleveland baseball win again to go back to 20 games over .500. Only thing left is to decide on dinner. The options are a cheese burger with sauteed shrooms and fries, a loaded brats or pepper steak over egg noodles.

 

[gwand]

What is the old saying, “One man’s junk is another man’s treasure “.

 

[jaylach]

What is the old saying, “One man’s junk is another man’s treasure “.

Very true but I'm rather surprised that someone got rid of the thing as it is actually really nice and the three candle holders are filled with candles that have never even been lit. If I were to get rid of a candle holder I'd at least keep the candles.

 

[Alice B]

we did the last large pond cleanup for the spring season. It was long and it was hot, she had 105 baby goldfish we had to catch and about 5000 toad tadpoles. now I just have to eat enough foods rich in B12 to get my platelets back up

 

[Oldspartan]

Another day …….. Another Dr appt.

Gonna start eating apples.

 

[GaryE]

Another day …….. Another Dr appt.

Gonna start eating apples.

Spartan apples?