Water Quality

[elmo666]

Although i class myself as relatively experience, I just can't sort this issue and I believe my fish are suffering as a consequence. Really struggling and puzzled with excessive nitrates despite 2 x 40% water changes in the past 4 days and now using purigen for 4 weeks. Checked water incoming @ 20 ppm no3. Ph 6.5, 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites but nitrate between 80 and 160! Not sure what to do. Balloon rams agitated, high reps and flicking front of body. Don't know if this is linked or possible parasite (gill flukes?) thanks.
set up is 250 ltr corner tank, eheim pro 3 350 external filter, two t5 tubes, timed with pressurized co2, also timed. Current stock: 6 small/medium discus, 2 balloon rams, 10 black phantom tetra, 4 clown loach a 8 corrys. Feeding is 3 x daily, usually all cleared in under a minute. Tank is fully planted.

 

[Dmbandstef]

Maybe you should cut the feeding down to once a day. Even though they eat it all, the fish will still produce more waste by eating 3x a day as opposed to one.

 

[Meeresstille]

It is harder to clean the substrate well when you have a planted tank. A lot of waste is able to hide there and cause Nitrates to rise. You already have high Nitrate coming from the tap, so removing the Nitrate doing water changes may mean a lot more water changes. Try to get to as much of the substrate as you can without disturbing the plants and their roots too much. Can you add some more plants that would help use up some more of the Nitrate? Never thought of it before, but are there plants that use up more Nitrate than others?

 

[malfunction]

Maybe you should cut the feeding down to once a day. Even though they eat it all, the fish will still produce more waste by eating 3x a day as opposed to one.

+1

Is there a particular reason why you feed three times per day, rather than once or twice?

 

[elmo666]

Thanks for your replies. Feeding younger discus is advised at a level of 5-6 times daily, I got this info from simply discus forum, local aquatic store and books. However, this was the first thing I changed when problems arose. I try to keep things clean between the plants with a gravel vac. To be honest my gravel cleaning doesn't throw up much detritus into my bucket. So, I'm either cleaning a clean set up or I'm crap at tank maintenance lol. Was thinking of going down the r/o route, to minimize nitrates going in, but really worried about a ph crash, heard of so many disasters in fresh water set ups.

 

[Meeresstille]

Just remembered someone placing the roots of spider plants at the surface of the water in the tank. they helped use up nitrate. 
 
Also, keeping your filters clean of mulm is something I just thought I'd mention. But you probably are doing that already, especially with having Discus in the tank! I understand they are quite sensitive to water quality!

 

[malfunction]

Thanks for your replies. Feeding younger discus is advised at a level of 5-6 times daily, I got this info from simply discus forum, local aquatic store and books. However, this was the first thing I changed when problems arose. I try to keep things clean between the plants with a gravel vac. To be honest my gravel cleaning doesn't throw up much detritus into my bucket. So, I'm either cleaning a clean set up or I'm crap at tank maintenance lol. Was thinking of going down the r/o route, to minimize nitrates going in, but really worried about a ph crash, heard of so many disasters in fresh water set ups.

Wow, I knew they had to be fed little and often, but it didn't realise it was as high as that!

I've never kept discus so, won't pretend to have a wealth if experience when it comes to their husbandry. What I do have experience with though, is high nitrates. My tap water has ridiculously high nitrates, which means water changes have no effect. After trying a few different things I settled on using synthetic resins. Essentially, I leave my water for 24-48 hours in a container with nitrazorb pads before adding it to the tanks. I also use nitratex and seachem matrix in my external filters. I've been doing that since October last year. When I tested my parameters this weekend, my tap water was 40ppm; tank water was 10ppm.

I think RO water would work, but I can't say much as I've never used it. I've deliberately avoided it in the past as the number of water changes I do make it too expensive.

Hope this helps.

 

[fluttermoth]

20ppm in your tap water is actually very good.

I think your problem is as simple as you're very heavily stocked and you need to do more water changes. Do enough and your nitrate will come down.

 

[elmo666]

Hmmm, the resins sound interesting, I'll certainly look into them. Never really considered my stocking was too high, with roughly 10ltrs water per inch of fish, but will consider thinning it out a bit if the other suggestions don't work. I'm a little disappointed with the impact of the purigen, costing £50 with the specialist bag. Retailer, a good friend, assured me it would greatly help, increasing water quality and "redox" ( I think that's what he said)

 

[elmo666]

Just read an interesting article regarding how to calculate stocking levels, least effective to best: surface area, volume, and volume plus filtration.
it states 1cm per litre is a good guide, with the following adjustment for filtration:
undergravel -20%
internal power filter +20%
external filter +60%.
That would suggest my max stocking level would be 375cm+ plus. I'm,at best at:
6 discus 10cm each max 90cm
10 black phantoms 30cm
4 clown loach 28cm
10 corys 25cm
2 balloon rams 6cm
So, no where near the tanks max sticking level

 

[Lunar Jetman]

When you say "between 80-160" can you elaborate? Most test kits seem to have 80 and 160 at the end of the range with the colour for each quite close so you could only have 80 or you could have 160.

Most test kits aren't that accurate at that level anyway so you need to be a bit wary of getting to hung up on the figures. What test kit are you using? If you changed 40% of the water then if you were measuring 80 you should see the figure drop. Are you seeing this?

Also, are you feeding the plants? Plant food contains nitrates so can raise levels. Any dead plants in there too?

Try this for a start if you're really concerned about nitrate levels; take a test reading, change 50% of the water and then test again. You should see a noticeable drop in levels. Then keep doing this for the next few days until levels are where you want them.

Of course if its related to food waste, plants dying or plant fertilizers and you've not changed anything in relation to this then you'll just have the levels rise again.

Just read an interesting article regarding how to calculate stocking levels, least effective to best: surface area, volume, and volume plus filtration.
it states 1cm per litre is a good guide, with the following adjustment for filtration:
undergravel -20%
internal power filter +20%
external filter +60%.
That would suggest my max stocking level would be 375cm+ plus. I'm,at best at:
6 discus 10cm each max 90cm
10 black phantoms 30cm
4 clown loach 28cm
10 corys 25cm
2 balloon rams 6cm
So, no where near the tanks max sticking level

Although stocking levels vary and there's no hard and fast rule, I'd say you're overstocked. I really wouldn't go adding on extra levels for having a filter. My tank is 288 litres and is 4ft/120cm long and I wouldn't put in the volume you have..... I'd only really put about 150-180cm of fish in mine...

 

[l_l_l]

All of you guys having high nitrates in your water supply makes me feel like I should be concerned about reading at 0ppm.

 

[elmo666]

Good points lunar jetman. As I said I was quoting an article giving guidelines, and with less than 180cm of fish, I'm comfortable that my stocking is low, certainly not heavy. I have been able to see the level drop back after a water change, but doesn't stay there for long. I use the API master kit, and you're right, very difficult to differentiate between the 2 higher levels, which makes life difficult because one is double the other!. The plants are fed, but its nitrate free, only micro and macro elements. I wouldn't claim to have a spotless tank, no chance in a fully planted set up, but I do manage to keep a lid on it so to speak. Another confusion is the lack of any type of visible algae, which I would expect in a high light/nitrate environment. Hope none of this comes over as argumentative, as I said appreciate all the replies, just frustrated how quickly the levels rise. If anyone has had the same problems as me I'd love to hear. Incidentally, the set up has been running trouble free, putting aside this recent nitrate issue, for 15 months. No disease, lost one ram 6 months ago, and plants thriving, need thinning out monthly.

 

[Lunar Jetman]

Good points lunar jetman. As I said I was quoting an article giving guidelines, and with less than 180cm of fish, I'm comfortable that my stocking is low, certainly not heavy. I have been able to see the level drop back after a water change, but doesn't stay there for long. I use the API master kit, and you're right, very difficult to differentiate between the 2 higher levels, which makes life difficult because one is double the other!. The plants are fed, but its nitrate free, only micro and macro elements. I wouldn't claim to have a spotless tank, no chance in a fully planted set up, but I do manage to keep a lid on it so to speak. Another confusion is the lack of any type of visible algae, which I would expect in a high light/nitrate environment. Hope none of this comes over as argumentative, as I said appreciate all the replies, just frustrated how quickly the levels rise. If anyone has had the same problems as me I'd love to hear. Incidentally, the set up has been running trouble free, putting aside this recent nitrate issue, for 15 months. No disease, lost one ram 6 months ago, and plants thriving, need thinning out monthly.

 
Firstly, no this doesn't come over as argumentative. You're trying to work out what is going on in your tank and we're all trying to help by offering advice and guidance from our own experiences. I'll take your comments in good spirit if you do the same for mine!

 
Taking your comments in order, I found the article I think you were referring to in relation to stocking volumes and I have to say that its all down to a matter of opinion but its dangerous to just say 1cm per litre. You're saying that you think you can put nearly 4 metres of fish in your tank, or at least 3.75 metres. I would strongly disagree with that statement. You can't just arbitrarily add 60% to the capacity because you have an external filter for example. Your external filter may not be as powerful as the next persons internal filter and I've never thought that by having an external filter rated for my sized tank (which I do) means that I can have a greater number of fish as opposed to having an internal filter rated to my size of tank. (which I have had in the past)
 
I've just used the calculator for surface area and got a figure of 160cm for my tank (which is 288 litres, 120x40x50cm) but the volume and filtration calculator says I can have 461cm of fish. That's 3 metres difference between the two figures! I couldn't get over 4 and a half metres of fish in my tank!
 
Add to that, you have to take each type of fish on its own merit as some fish need more space than others, e.g. Clown Loaches individually will get to 15-20cm if not bigger and need a minimum of a 4 foot/75 gallon tank, preferably bigger. You have four so you could have nearly a metre's worth of fish there when fully grown.
 
What you should be doing is using the fully grown size of a fish to determine if its suitable for your tank and not its current size, e.g. you could put both a shoal of 5 neons and a couple of young clown loaches (say 5cm each) in a 2ft tank initially, but whilst the neons might be ok there permanently, the loaches would quickly outgrow the size of the tank. (and probably not he happy in that low number and small tank as they like to swim, but you get my point)
 
Therefore, in my opinion you should have around 120cm of fish in your tank and you currently have 179cm (a figure that will likely increase as the fish grow) 
 
I'd also wager that your macro/micro fertilisers have some nitrate based chemicals in them otherwise they're unlikely to be giving your plants the nutrients they need. E.g. mine has potassium nitrate in it and results in higher nitrate levels. I suggest you have a look at this site which has chemicals you can mix yourself to make micro/macro solutions, Also you can look at this site's calculator which gives advice on what you might need to mix yourself.
 
Also, if your plants are thriving under the lighting/nutrient levels you have, its likely that you won't have algae but you could have elevated levels of nitrates.
 
How often do you change the water? I would expect (and hope) that you are changing around 50% every week, otherwise the volume of fish and plant nutrients will cause high levels of nitrates.

I presume you know all about the Estimative Index method around micro/macro that you're using? James' Planted Tank gives a good description if you're not 100% clear.
 
In summary, I think you have a combination of a planted tank, high in nutrients (even higher if you don't keep up the water changes) and an excess volume of fish which is causing your high nitrate levels. I'm betting that 15 months ago all these fish were smaller or have been added over this time so what you're experiencing is a slow build up of nitrate levels, plus the regular doses of nutrients that increases them further.
 
I hope this helps.

 

[elmo666]

Thanks for your reply jetman. I appreciate anyone's input and consider all comments before replying. I have built up my fish gradually and didn't experience the nitrate at the current level before introduction of my discus (juveniles) 6 weeks ago. Its obviously linked to feeding, tho I'm not feeding at the level I was advised to, or read about. 5-6 times daily appears to norm when they're young.
I use a company called lush, which sell macro and micro ferts in powder form, I simply mix and dose as per instructions using a syringe.
Purely on a visual, my tank appears relatively sparse if fish, tho admittedly this counts for nothing. Did an accurate measurement of all fish, I've only actually got 130cm. I do intend "thinning out"- the clown loach will be the first to go......probably a Xmas holiday for them lol.
I've incresed my water changes to 60 ltrs 3 x weekly, so best part of 75%.