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Think i may do Dr Tims cycle

Country joe

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After reading Dr Tims cycle on here, I think I may give it a try, I have acouple of questions on Dr Tims video he says use one drop per gallon of ammonia but some of the you tube sites say four drops to the gallon, also my tank has led lights can I still keep these on whilst whilst doing the cycle, as I have them on a timer, which I could not set so I asked my local shop manager and he set it up for me, so I don't want to bother him with it again by switching off and it doesn't have an override switch. I've sent an email to Dr Tims website to ask if I can still use his product as I have been using Seachem Stability, I stopped two days ago, and finally when doing the cycle do you stop doing water changes, sorry for all the questions, I have been looking at his information site.
 
The dose rate on Dr Tim's One & Only changed a couple of years ago and the YouTube videos could be from when the old dosage was in use. Go by whatever it says on the bottle. Remember they'll be American gallons; the calculator on here will help you convert your tank's litres.
 
It's the best one of that type on the market I feel. Safe Start from tetra is second. I've used them both a few times and Dr Tim's works better in my experience.
 
Would the led lights being on be okay It only mentions uv, and do you think it would be okay using dr tims products if I've used stability, and finally would you still do water changes when using the product.
 
The light should be OK left on. Ideally cycling should be done with the light off, but you have live plants, and the filter is black plastic which means the filter media where the bacteria grow are in the dark.


Which type of lights do you have? Juwel makes 'multilux' which is a bar with LED tubes attached to it or 'helialux' which a bar with the LEDs inside the bar.
Unless you use a phone with the smart control for helialux only, a simple plug in timer is actually all you need. I now have electronic timers but for years I used simple mechanical timers like this
 
I did not see anything about there being live plants in the tank. If there are live plants one cannot suse the normal fishless cycling method. The reason is that live plants use ammonia, When they do they do, this does not results in the creation of either nitrite ort nitrate. So one cannot use the directions for fishless cycling, the numbers will be totally different. I have been threatening for years to write one moire cycling article when live plants are involved. It is extremely difficult because of the huge variety of plants which use ammonia at different rates. This is exacerbated by the total volume of plants involved. it is not easy to reduce potential myriad of plants one may have in a tank.

What follows below if written for a fishless cycle with mo live plants. I can verbally expalin how to do this a lot better than I can write it :(

When you are ready to add the Dr. Tim's make sure there is ammonia in the water. I prefer to blackout the tank after adding Dr. Tim's. The bacteria do not like the light so it helps for the tank to be dark for the first 12-24 hours. The bacteria need to find their way into the filter media and into the substrate. Some of it usually also ends up on other solid surfaces of the tank. About the last place they will be found is on the glass.

I use Dr. Tim's to help seed my filter bio-farm when I have to run it. And the above is how I add it. The difference in what I do v.s. normally cycling of a tank is I am doing it on a highly concentrated level. This requires I monitor things much more closely than I did when cycling a single tank.

If you are cycling a bigger tank you can also dose in ml which is what 1 do for the biofarm which needs a lot of ammonia. Here is the info for different ways to measure what one might need:

1 drop equals 0.05 ml
1 ml equals 20 drops
1 teaspoon equals about 5 ml which is 100 drops
1 tablespoon equals almost 15 ml which is 300 drops

I should say that I mix my own solution starting with dry ammonium chloride and use my RO/DI water. I make a somewhat stronger solution than Dr. Tim's. Also, Fritz sells ammonium chloride. They have it in a smaller size liquid bottle and then the huge dry product amount.

Finally, I based the fishless cycling method on this site on Dr. Tim's. But back then his directions were different. They allowed for nitrite to get to high and then to stall the cycle because there were more ammonia additions. And because most hobby test kits use the Total Ion scale, they do not read high enough to be able to test high nitrite. They can be used if one knows how to do diluted testing. I believed the last thing somebody new to the hobby needed was to have to master diluted testing when they were already struggling to get cycling done right.

I used to correspond with Dr. Tim very early on. I honestly believe he looked at my method here and he changed his. I just noticed he states this on his site re cycling:
Generally during a fishless cycle you need to add ammonium chloride to your tank 3 times so.
I think the average cycle needs more than three additions. There are a number of variables involved and this means some cycles are average, some are faster and some are slower. The two main factors are how much bacteria may be present at the start and then how much and how often one adds ammonia. Because of this the method here is somewhat open ended to allow for this. They key to knowing where a cycle stands is to keep a record of what you have done starting with day 1.

Cycling is a process which proceeds in stages. So accessing any problems require that we know how we reached that point. It is also why it is important if you are using the fishless cycling method on this site that you follow it to the letter. It was designed to be fail-safe if followed.

There are a lot of bacterial starter products out there. Almost none contain Nitrospira which are essential in a cycled aquarium. They are even more important since it was discovered they are able to process ammonia straight through to nitrate. What this means is that the bacteria and Archaea which only oxidize ammonia to nitrite are need in lesser numbers. But apparently the Nitrospira take a bit longer to colonize and then to reproduce, This would explain why we see ammonia first and then nitrite.

We cannot tell which specific bacteria is doing what when. What we can do is test to see what the status of ammonia, nitrite and even nitrate are in a tank at any given time.

When one uses one of the cycling products which do not contain live bacteria or the ones which do not have Nitrospira really do not do much for establishing the cycle which will be in a tank for years or even decades. What they can do is provide a little respite from ammonia and from high nitrite levels. But what we do not see is that a lot of what is in the bottle is not found in any numbers or at all in the tank when the cycle is fully in place. It is also thought that what is in the other products may be provide some food for the bacteria.

BTW- for a long time Dr. Tim suggested that one not allow the bacteria to freeze as that kills them. he also suggested not letting them get much above about 105F or they would be harmed. But the science has changed and so has his suggestion which now says (bold below added by me):.
Temperatures During Shipping – Nitrifying bacteria are relatively tough bacteria especially ours because we grow them on a small particle (which is why you need to shake the bottle well before adding them to the tank). They tolerate heat very well and only when exposed to temperatures over 130°F for several days do they suffer. At the other extreme, they do not survive freezing and if the bottle arrives frozen solid chances are the bacteria did not survive. If the temperatures in your area are at either of these extremes purchase the extreme weather package (Item#799P).
And then there is this to bear in mind:
Overdosing with Ammonia-Removing Chemicals – It makes little sense to add an ammonia-removing chemical to your aquarium water when you are then going to add ammonium chloride drops. So don’t! Just use a ‘simple’ dechlorinating agent like our First Defense to remove any chloramines or chlorine. Some popular brands of ammonia-removers advertise that they do not affect the nitrifying bacteria even at high doses – this is wrong. The overuse of ammonia-removing chemicals will stall the cycle,

One last note, I have a lot of respect for Dr. H. and his products. But bear in mind that selling his products is primarily how he makes his living. So, he does have some motivation to have us use more rather than than less of what he sells. However, what he sells should work as it is his field of expertise. He does not sell "snake oil." But he is not beyond suggesting one use his products a bit more often than they may be needed, IMO. However, doing so sbould never be harmful as far as I can tell. But, I would not suggest one dose more of anything than is recommended.
 
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The light should be OK left on. Ideally cycling should be done with the light off, but you have live plants, and the filter is black plastic which means the filter media where the bacteria grow are in the dark.


Which type of lights do you have? Juwel makes 'multilux' which is a bar with LED tubes attached to it or 'helialux' which a bar with the LEDs inside the bar.
Unless you use a phone with the smart control for helialux only, a simple plug in timer is actually all you need. I now have electronic timers but for years I used simple mechanical timers like this
It's a multilux
 
In that case one of those simple mechanical timers would do the same job as some fancy one. All you do is press down a section for the time when the lights need to be on.
Would it be possible to return the one you have now and get one of those simple ones?
 
The light should be OK left on. Ideally cycling should be done with the light off, but you have live plants, and the filter is black plastic which means the filter media where the bacteria grow are in the dark.


Which type of lights do you have? Juwel makes 'multilux' which is a bar with LED tubes attached to it or 'helialux' which a bar with the LEDs inside the bar.
Unless you use a phone with the smart control for helialux only, a simple plug in timer is actually all you need. I now have electronic timers but for years I used simple mechanical timers like this
It's a multilux
 
I think I've now got the hang of it this will be the last post on the subject, I received an email from Dr Tims saying its okay to use if been using stability, but he also says do not add a Ammonia removing solution well when I did my 30% water change on Thursday I usedone capfull of API tap water solution I have emailed them back to ask if this is okay, and if not how long to wait before using his product.
 
API Tap Water Conditioner does not remove ammonia, only chlorine. But API do make products which remove ammonia.

if the bottle says "Tap Water Conditioner", that's OK. If the bottle says something else, tell us what it says.
 
Thanks Essjay it's good, API Tap Water Conditionermy email from Dr Tim says you can add one and only to the filter so I think k I will do that.
 
Just read the label on a dechlor product and it will say something like this:
"The Original AmQuel Product For Chlorine, Chloramine, And Ammonia Detoxifier"
or

Prime​

  • Complete and concentrated conditioner for both fresh and saltwater
  • Removes chlorine, chloramine
  • Detoxifies ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate

The way these products detoxify ammonia is by making sure all of it in the water is in the form of ammonium rather than ammonia. The reason this slows a cycle is that the bacteria prefer ammonia and use it more efficiently. They can use ammonium, but they do so more slowly and that is why Dr. Hovanec says it will slow the cycle.

But, you might also need to do some investigation to know how long this ability to detoxify ammonia lasts. For ammonia already in the water and you add the correct amount of the product it should neutralize the ammonia pretty fast.
How long does Prime® stay bound to the ammonia, nitrite, and nitrates?

A: Prime® will bind up those compounds for up to 48 hours. If they are still present after that time frame, they are released back into the water, unless Prime® is re-dosed accordingly.

For the AmQuel mentioned above, they also say this:

The pH of the water being treated affects the speed at which AmQuel removes ammonia. The lower the pH, the slower AmQuel works. At a pH of 7.0 (neutral) AmQuel will remove the ammonia in less than 5 minutes. Several minutes more are needed at higher pHs.
The reason that it takes longer when the pH is higher is because, in water most of ammonia is ammonium aka NH4. How much of the Total Ammonia (NH3+NH4) is in each form depends largely upon the pH and less so on the water temp. Since what ammonia detoxifiers basically do is to convert the NH3 to NH4, the more NH3 there is, the longer it takes for all of the Total Ammonia to be NH4.

By the time a tank is at a pH of 6.0, virtually all of the ammonia is in the NH4/ammonium form. Here is how 2 ppm of Total Ammonia on a test kit breaks down at 6.0 pH. The actual NH3 ammonia in the water is .0016 ppm. Most test kits only read total ammonia down to .25 ppm. In the sample below the concentration of NH3 (the toxic stuff) is 0.64%. That is 64/100s of 1%.

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Btw, if the above example readings were in one of my tanks that had fish in it while I was cycling this (something I would never be doing), I would not change a drop of water for a number of days. What would get me to change some water would be if the ammonia did not drop as that would likely mean I had messed up the cycle somehow.

If you are going to say, "What about the nitrite that ammonia would make?" I would say that I would just add a bit of salt to the water to block the nitrite from entering the fish via its gills.
 

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