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The TFF General Aviation Thread (those things with wings)
- Thread starter fishyfun&fans
- Start date
Dallas air show pilots were given no altitude advice before crash, NTSB report says
A report from federal officials on a deadly midair collision at a Dallas air show says no guidance was given on altitudes before planes collided.
www.usatoday.com
D
Deleted member 149562
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Dallas air show pilots were given no altitude advice before crash, NTSB report says
A report from federal officials on a deadly midair collision at a Dallas air show says no guidance was given on altitudes before planes collided.www.usatoday.com
Very interesting perspective by the media (as usual)
A quote from the preliminary report
"According to the recorded audio for the airshow radio transmissions and Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast (ADS-B) data, the air boss directed both formations to maneuver southwest of the runway before returning to the flying display area, which was the designated performance area. He directed the fighter formation to transition to a trail formation, fly in front of the bomber formation, and proceed near the 500 ft show line. The bombers were directed to fly down the 1,000 ft show line. The 500 ft show line and 1,000 ft show line were 500 ft and 1,000 ft respectively from the airshow viewing line behind which the audience viewed the airshow."
I think we can safely say that there was indeed flight instructions given by the Air Boss/ground controller in regard to height, seperation and position for the bombers vs the fighters in the display
The hard part is working out whether the instructions were clear to everyone after being given at the flight briefing, was everyone actually listening - as with most things there will always be those who listen but do not hear simply cos they been there, done that and all the briefing instructions are "blah blah blah". You would be amazed how many in a briefing fiddle with maps etc rather than actually pin back their ears "done it here before, no need to listen again".....a bit like those annoying passengers on airliners who refuse to take notice of the emergency instructions and then when the plane crashes they grab their carry on luggage and duty free before sliding down the chute.
The preliminary report into any accident (fatacc or not) usually comes out within 30-45 days of the accident. The main and final one can take years to be ratified and released. I suspect that, as with all airshow accidents, the use of a basic Air Boss/ground controller and no actual full ATC or radar will make things harder to prove who was in the wrong place and height at the wrong time.
I am still of the thought that the P63 pilot suffered some sort of spacial aqareness issue or potentially the more deadly spacial disorientation issue and simply didn't see the B17 thanks to a not terribly good canopy design hampering his viewpoint and perhaps mistakenly thinking he was in the wrong position, opened the gas to get into his perceived right place and the inevitable result was a bad one.
The main report is what will be the more interesting read....but I do not think it should be reported or believed if found in the media. Better to go to the horses mouth.
CEN23MA034.aspx
www.ntsb.gov
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@Slaphppy7
To give you an idea of what flying a vintage warbird (or any vintage plane for that matter) is like...
A very close, now departed, friend of mine Ted White used to equate flying a warbird to driving a 100+ ton truck, with no power steering, no assisted braking, a throttle that requires instruction via telegraph since it takes so long to actually realise that you moved the levers and muscles like superman.
Ted was a lovely guy. He was the one who rescued, restored and flew our B17 Sally B. He died on June 22, 1982 whilst flying his T6 Harvard in Malta, during preparation for the air rally there. He and his co-pilot Mark Campbell were killed instantly. A living memorial to them exists in the yellow/black checkerboard cowlling on Sally B to this day.
You see, people who stand and watch these magnificent birds fly at airshows and rallies (and most journalists who report it when it goes wrong) do not truly realise what actually goes into doing it.
The aircraft are as they came from the factory apart from a more up to date radio, nothing else is really changed. Their controls are cable and pulley system, unlike a modern aircraft they need to be manhandled everywhere, they are very noisy, they vibrate and rattle so much that you need to shout and scream at the person sat beside you and into the radio or you do not hear them speaking to you...they are also very hot and smelly and the view from the cockpit is terrible with badly placed metal framing in all the wrong places.
These planes were designed for straight and level flying to...and hopefully from...a target. They were not designed for tight display flight. They are like flying a stubborn and constipated elephant.
The pre display briefings are vital cos you get to take notes as to where you need to be at any given moment so that you can start making turns or accelerating way earlier than you would in a modern aircraft
Start turning and its like the aircraft asks you "Oh...do you want me to do something? Oh OK then" and eventually the message gets through
There is so much happening at once, it takes multitasking to a whole new level.
Ground control talking to you
You are scanning the horizon looking for issues
You cannot hear yourself think due to the noise and rattles
You have to make sure that you follow the safe line away from the crowd
You have to watch who and what is on your wingtips at all time and alter position when required to stay safe
You scan your instruments and listen for any tone changes to ensure your plane is running right
You have to maintain straight, level flight and your speed exactly
On top of all that you are flying around 500ft off the deck and if you drew the short straw and are on the end of the line abreast and you have to turn in formation, you have to throttle up like a bat out of hell to maintain you positioning in the arc
Something as simple as an itchy nose will distract you or the sun shining on your canopy will blind you. These pilots wear the regulation parachute as per the rules. But at that height, you KNOW that if you get into the poo, you will not be going home in one piece, if you get home at all.
Along with Ted, I have lost 16 good friends who were display pilots where their aircraft went bad, they got hit by birds or another aircraft...even hit by a drone in recent years.
Display flying can be as pressurised as the flying that those brave young men did during the wars.....anything can happen and there is every chance that you might not make it home. Display flying is highly regulated for safety but you cannot ever be 100% safe, the unexpected can and does happen and when it does, then chances of survival are very very slim indeed
I have heard people complain at airshows that the flypasts were not spectacular enough or that the cost of attending was high......but at the end of the day the pilots and crews pay a far higher price for what they are doing. They fly these vintage aircraft for the love of it and to remind people exactly who saved the freedom and democracy that we enjoy now. These planes are living history that are still more than capable of snuffing lives out and all it takes is a tiny mistake, a distraction, a bird, a drone, another aircraft, a sudden change in the weather or a mechanical issue to do it.
To give you an idea of what flying a vintage warbird (or any vintage plane for that matter) is like...
A very close, now departed, friend of mine Ted White used to equate flying a warbird to driving a 100+ ton truck, with no power steering, no assisted braking, a throttle that requires instruction via telegraph since it takes so long to actually realise that you moved the levers and muscles like superman.
Ted was a lovely guy. He was the one who rescued, restored and flew our B17 Sally B. He died on June 22, 1982 whilst flying his T6 Harvard in Malta, during preparation for the air rally there. He and his co-pilot Mark Campbell were killed instantly. A living memorial to them exists in the yellow/black checkerboard cowlling on Sally B to this day.
You see, people who stand and watch these magnificent birds fly at airshows and rallies (and most journalists who report it when it goes wrong) do not truly realise what actually goes into doing it.
The aircraft are as they came from the factory apart from a more up to date radio, nothing else is really changed. Their controls are cable and pulley system, unlike a modern aircraft they need to be manhandled everywhere, they are very noisy, they vibrate and rattle so much that you need to shout and scream at the person sat beside you and into the radio or you do not hear them speaking to you...they are also very hot and smelly and the view from the cockpit is terrible with badly placed metal framing in all the wrong places.
These planes were designed for straight and level flying to...and hopefully from...a target. They were not designed for tight display flight. They are like flying a stubborn and constipated elephant.
The pre display briefings are vital cos you get to take notes as to where you need to be at any given moment so that you can start making turns or accelerating way earlier than you would in a modern aircraft
Start turning and its like the aircraft asks you "Oh...do you want me to do something? Oh OK then" and eventually the message gets through
There is so much happening at once, it takes multitasking to a whole new level.
Ground control talking to you
You are scanning the horizon looking for issues
You cannot hear yourself think due to the noise and rattles
You have to make sure that you follow the safe line away from the crowd
You have to watch who and what is on your wingtips at all time and alter position when required to stay safe
You scan your instruments and listen for any tone changes to ensure your plane is running right
You have to maintain straight, level flight and your speed exactly
On top of all that you are flying around 500ft off the deck and if you drew the short straw and are on the end of the line abreast and you have to turn in formation, you have to throttle up like a bat out of hell to maintain you positioning in the arc
Something as simple as an itchy nose will distract you or the sun shining on your canopy will blind you. These pilots wear the regulation parachute as per the rules. But at that height, you KNOW that if you get into the poo, you will not be going home in one piece, if you get home at all.
Along with Ted, I have lost 16 good friends who were display pilots where their aircraft went bad, they got hit by birds or another aircraft...even hit by a drone in recent years.
Display flying can be as pressurised as the flying that those brave young men did during the wars.....anything can happen and there is every chance that you might not make it home. Display flying is highly regulated for safety but you cannot ever be 100% safe, the unexpected can and does happen and when it does, then chances of survival are very very slim indeed
I have heard people complain at airshows that the flypasts were not spectacular enough or that the cost of attending was high......but at the end of the day the pilots and crews pay a far higher price for what they are doing. They fly these vintage aircraft for the love of it and to remind people exactly who saved the freedom and democracy that we enjoy now. These planes are living history that are still more than capable of snuffing lives out and all it takes is a tiny mistake, a distraction, a bird, a drone, another aircraft, a sudden change in the weather or a mechanical issue to do it.
D
Deleted member 149562
Guest
RIP Carolyn. A true pioneer in display flying.
You will be very much missed by everyone involved with display flying. Strength & condolences to your family and friends
www.dailymail.co.uk
You will be very much missed by everyone involved with display flying. Strength & condolences to your family and friends
Britain's only female Spitfire pilot killed in car crash in Australia
Carolyn Grace, 70, who lives in Cornwall, was driving her Suziki car in the city of Goulbourn, southwest of Sydney, when she collided with a silver Hilux on Friday.
D
Deleted member 149562
Guest
Boeing seems determined to make themselves look incredibly stupid and heartless.
Following the MAX crashes, they are still arguing as to how much compensation to give to victim's families.......the latest excuse is that the victims, in their opinion, did not suffer paid or distress. Boeing's lawyers claim everyone on the two aircraft died instantly and that the minutes prior to the crashes when the aircraft was bucking and diving and the final dives to earth does not constitute pain or distress suffered by anyone.
How crass and ignorant can these lawyers and Boeing be?
Of course those passengers and crew suffered pain and distress......these idiots in court should be taken for a flight that mimicks those killer flights (obviously without the killer bit) and see how much pain and distress they feel sitting helpless in an aircraft that is trying to slam into the ground...the ear pain would be excruciating alone from the altitude/pressure changes, never mind the feelings of abject terror as the plane dives, climbs and dives again and again....those lawyers and Boeing people would be wetting themselves!
Boeing used to have a fantastic reputation....but the way they have dealt with the MAX has destroyed that good reputaion just as much as it has destroyed so many lives.
www.dailymail.co.uk
Someone at Boeing needs to pay for all of this...and not just in financial terms. It is absolutely disgusting that Boeing are fighting tooth and nail to prevent victim's families from obtaining compensation for what was clearly corporate manslaughter over the MAX disasters.
Following the MAX crashes, they are still arguing as to how much compensation to give to victim's families.......the latest excuse is that the victims, in their opinion, did not suffer paid or distress. Boeing's lawyers claim everyone on the two aircraft died instantly and that the minutes prior to the crashes when the aircraft was bucking and diving and the final dives to earth does not constitute pain or distress suffered by anyone.
How crass and ignorant can these lawyers and Boeing be?
Of course those passengers and crew suffered pain and distress......these idiots in court should be taken for a flight that mimicks those killer flights (obviously without the killer bit) and see how much pain and distress they feel sitting helpless in an aircraft that is trying to slam into the ground...the ear pain would be excruciating alone from the altitude/pressure changes, never mind the feelings of abject terror as the plane dives, climbs and dives again and again....those lawyers and Boeing people would be wetting themselves!
Boeing used to have a fantastic reputation....but the way they have dealt with the MAX has destroyed that good reputaion just as much as it has destroyed so many lives.
Boeing REFUSING to pay out more to families of victims of its 737-MAX
The argument was aired by the company last month in documents filed federal court, days before relatives of the 157 victims descended on Boeing's Arlington, Virginia headquarters
Someone at Boeing needs to pay for all of this...and not just in financial terms. It is absolutely disgusting that Boeing are fighting tooth and nail to prevent victim's families from obtaining compensation for what was clearly corporate manslaughter over the MAX disasters.
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