Sudden Epiphany

[onidrase]

So your logic is it's okay to mistreat a creature because someone else would likely mistreat it more?
It looks pretty bad when you boil it down.

not mistreat.

I'm not saying it's okay to keep a fish in a space way too small for it to grow it's full potential or be able to move around significantly. But I am saying why not get a fish if it can grow its full length and still be able to live decently and fully, with the water always being in pristine condition and the diet being proper, the tank mates being compatible, and the stock not being overbearing, even if your tank isn't quite the size it would prefer? If it really mistreating an animal if you're taking care of it correctly, even if your tank isn't quite a recommended size? Are you mistreating a cat that would like to go outdoors by keeping it inside if you live in a studio apartment, even if you feed it well and keep the place clean and allow him to roam the apartment freely?

I do understand what you're saying, and I don't fully disagree.

At the same time, I don't think it's wise to look to other people's behavior to determine your own. Yes, there are many bettas in the world that are kept in terrible conditions. But my responsibility is to the one betta that I own, which is why he has a 10 gallon tank.

Unfortunately, there are no laws that regulate the minimum environment for fish. But no one needs a betta or a zero danio. If you want to 'rescue' fish, wouldn't it be better to rescue fish that you CAN provide the proper environment for, including the proper amount of space? Let's say you have a 20 gallon tank. Instead of rescuing a danio, rescue a rasbora, for example---there are just as many of them kept in improper conditions. Otherwise you're really just excusing your choice to keep a danio in a cramped space by saying other people do worse.

I don't think it's outright cruelty to keep a fish in a smaller space than recommended. But I do think it's being slightly foggy to claim you're doing it for the fish's sake instead of just because you wanted that particular species over the many others that could be comfortable in your tank size.

but some fish are less inclined to getting that minimum tank size than others. There is a large supply of people that -do- own a 15 or 30 some odd gallon community tank for those rasboras for example, whereas there are not so many people who have a 4 footer tank for those zebra danios or oscars or x y z. The only other person I know in my area who has a tank bigger than 2 feet is my aunt, and she doesn't even use it for fresh water. Chances are, those zebra danios -aside from not being given even adequate space- aren't even going to be kept in a decent school, because people don't realize that the more the merrier works with fish, and the pet stores, like I said, only recommend 3-5

 

[trianglekitty]

[/quote]
but some fish are less inclined to getting that minimum tank size than others. There is a large supply of people that -do- own a 15 or 30 some odd gallon community tank for those rasboras for example, whereas there are not so many people who have a 4 footer tank for those zebra danios or oscars or x y z. The only other person I know in my area who has a tank bigger than 2 feet is my aunt, and she doesn't even use it for fresh water. Chances are, those zebra danios -aside from not being given even adequate space- aren't even going to be kept in a decent school, because people don't realize that the more the merrier works with fish, and the pet stores, like I said, only recommend 3-5
[/quote]

Sure. But how many will mix rasboras or guppies with incompatible fish like say, sharks or tiger barbs? Or throw them in a new tank that has been 'cycled' overnight? Or have only one lonely rasbora? There are still plenty of rasboras being abused or neglected due to lack of research and effort. So you're still 'rescuing' them from these potential bad pet owners.

But the point here to to be the type of pet owner who DOES do the research. Again, my point is just that I don't look to other people's bad behavior to justify my own, even if my bad behavior is much milder. I take a really hard line on being responsible for my pets. You can't be halfway responsible, or mostly responsible- you either are or you aren't. The one danio that you pick for your undersized tank COULD have been sold to someone with a much smaller tank...or they COULD have been sold to someone with a larger thank that you have. If you really want to 'rescue' fish, wouldn't it be better to educate as many people as possible to their actual needs? That can include trying to educate the LFS (I know some will resist, but that doesn't mean you can't try.)

 

[HayzH]

My friend has a 4 gallon tank (hexagonal plastic lid type) In there she has 3x zebra danios, 2x white cloud minnows and 3 huge fancy goldfish! She has a tiny circle pad on the bottom as filtration, a completely useless bubble tube that expels 2 bubbles every 3 seconds and no heater. The water is brown and she said she hasnt cleaned it for months, and she rinses her media in TAP water. I thought i'd prove a point and test her water....

She had 0.25 ammonia, 0 nitrites and 20 nitrates.... WORK THAT OUT.

I do daily tests, w/c and have the correct filtration and i have lost 5 fish now!

It's just not fair?!

 

[Dieses Madchen]

A lot of new aquarists do not tank into account growing room. I know I didn't at first. I was a really bad fish keeper at first. I will admit that. But I do want what is best for my fish. Since the beginning, I have set up 3 more tanks. I have a 10g betta tank, 40g community, 55g malawi, and 75g severum tank. I know it may sound really silly to a lot of newbies to keep 4 fish in a 75g tank. What they don't know is that those severums are going to grow 9-12 inches long. They will probably outgrow my tank eventually, leaving me with the problem of finding a place to put that 150g I want so bad.

Basically what I am saying is I see a lot of LFS recommend an oscar to someone with a 30g tank, telling the potential owners that they have time before the oscar outgrows it. But as stated, what teenager is already planning a home suitable for an oscar? If it wasn't for this forum, I am sure that I would have a lot more that 10 inches of fish in my 75g tank.

But on a lighter note, thanks to good water conditions and a huge home, my Severums have grown an inch and a half since I first got them, and rehomed them, and got them back..

 

[Tizer]

I got half way through the post until it all turned to waffle, can someone sum it up for me? I keep trying to read it but my brain switches off

 

[This Old Spouse]

The point is, let's try to confuse Tizer enough so his brain turns off, and what do you know? It worked!

 

[Tizer]

 

[onidrase]

The point is, let's try to confuse Tizer enough so his brain turns off, and what do you know? It worked!

I'll try even harder next time, and forget that punctuation marks and vowels exist and make some awesome text speak wall of broken sentences

 

[Tizer]

just use the word boobies every few paragraphs, then im golden!

 

[onidrase]

just use the word boobies every few paragraphs, then im golden!

 

[onidrase]

Sure. But how many will mix rasboras or guppies with incompatible fish like say, sharks or tiger barbs? Or throw them in a new tank that has been 'cycled' overnight? Or have only one lonely rasbora? There are still plenty of rasboras being abused or neglected due to lack of research and effort. So you're still 'rescuing' them from these potential bad pet owners.

But the point here to to be the type of pet owner who DOES do the research. Again, my point is just that I don't look to other people's bad behavior to justify my own, even if my bad behavior is much milder. I take a really hard line on being responsible for my pets. You can't be halfway responsible, or mostly responsible- you either are or you aren't. The one danio that you pick for your undersized tank COULD have been sold to someone with a much smaller tank...or they COULD have been sold to someone with a larger thank that you have. If you really want to 'rescue' fish, wouldn't it be better to educate as many people as possible to their actual needs? That can include trying to educate the LFS (I know some will resist, but that doesn't mean you can't try.)

Sometimes in terms of people recommending people to take X species of fish back to the LFS, because the minimum tank size is y and your tank is z too small for it, (and I do it too) I'm left wondering if that fish that may have had a standable life will be thrown in a 10 gallon tank for 2 weeks till it dies of ammonia poisoning or the like.

In some cases this is an acceptable thing to tell people to do, like with fish that shouldn't even be in common trade, common plecos, clown loaches, BGK, Clown Knife Fish, Pengasius, Columbian Sharks, ect. There's a lot out there that just grow too large, too quick, are too picky, and really shouldn't be seen at your local petsmart ready to be tossed in whatever has water in it.

But in case of fish like the danios, or the red tailed/rainbow/black tailed sharks, those sorts of fish which could use a bit more room than what is provided (I'm saying the tank barely doesn't make the cut, here, like maybe it's 30 or 36 inches long rather than 48, not like 16 inches long and 5 inches wide or something) should they be taking the fish back to the store to be given the slim chance somebody did their research and knows they should have a 48 inch tank for plenty of swimming room even though they're not a very large fish?

 

[This Old Spouse]

My sincere apologies ... it's a green sunfish, not a green bass. The split in his tail was there when we got him.

 

[onidrase]

My sincere apologies ... it's a green sunfish, not a green bass. The split in his tail was there when we got him.

Still a very pretty fish

I remember walking around a nearby lake a few months back, and a bunch of kids were catching sunfish out there, saying they were gong to put them in an aquarium, I didn't think any of them would actually last, though. At least, not in tropical temperatures when the water out here is freezing, and all the lakes go frozen over the winter

 

[AbbeysDad]

First lets address the myth - tank size does not determine how big a fish will grow. Little fish don't get bigger in bigger tanks and big fish don't grow smaller in smaller tanks. There are other factors that control growth rates and size and people have incorrectly associated it with tank size.

Now it still seems that there is a bit of rationalization going on to justify putting a large fish in a small tank..."it's okay because the water is good and I feed it well." I would agree that absolute tank sizes for various fish may not be perfect, much like stock rates like 1" of fish per gallon.

Any kind of confinement can be good or bad. I live on a busy roadway, so my dog never runs free...but she's led a pretty good 'carpet' life and runs in the fenced in yard ;-)

I think the best we can hope for is that people use good judgement. But then I'd also like to see and end to wars and world hunger.

 

[This Old Spouse]

My sincere apologies ... it's a green sunfish, not a green bass. The split in his tail was there when we got him.

Still a very pretty fish

I remember walking around a nearby lake a few months back, and a bunch of kids were catching sunfish out there, saying they were gong to put them in an aquarium, I didn't think any of them would actually last, though. At least, not in tropical temperatures when the water out here is freezing, and all the lakes go frozen over the winter

He's my favorite fish in that tank! He's got loads of personality, and seems to have "street smarts" that the other fish don't have, like when I toss a live fly in the tank, he gets it every time. The other fish just wonder what happened.

And we live in northern Minnesota. The lakes are frozen here, too. There's a long story behind why we have him at all. Normally we wouldn't actively pursue getting a wild sunny, but he seems to be doing just fine.