Sudden Epiphany

I cannot see the thinking behind this?
If you do buy a fish that's too small for your tank your more than likely going to end up with some sort if dificulties, let's not play silly here. Guidelines are only that, guideline, unfortunately, you can go in and buy any fish for any size tank in most fish shops, if you can live with this after you knowing you shouldn't then you crack on and suffer the consequences, talk yourself into getting an oscar for that tank of yours, it seems that's what your trying to do and you obviously don't feel that comfortable about it other wise you wouldn't be asking for help in backing up your thinking. You won't find it with me.
Would you like to see shops refuse to sell people fish who cannot house them properly with adequate filtration? Such as a common plec, oscars, bala's, severum, BGK, red tailed cats, to name but a few fish that I see in every fish shop I go into.

We cannot change the world unless we change ourselves.
 
First lets address the myth - tank size does not determine how big a fish will grow. Little fish don't get bigger in bigger tanks and big fish don't grow smaller in smaller tanks. There are other factors that control growth rates and size and people have incorrectly associated it with tank size.

Now it still seems that there is a bit of rationalization going on to justify putting a large fish in a small tank..."it's okay because the water is good and I feed it well." I would agree that absolute tank sizes for various fish may not be perfect, much like stock rates like 1" of fish per gallon.

Any kind of confinement can be good or bad. I live on a busy roadway, so my dog never runs free...but she's led a pretty good 'carpet' life and runs in the fenced in yard ;-)

I think the best we can hope for is that people use good judgement. But then I'd also like to see and end to wars and world hunger.


+1


Ultimately, you can't judge yourself by the standard of someone else. If it is bad to keep an oscar in a 55 gallon tank, then it is bad. That is the advice that is given here by many folks. Is it better than someone who drops the same oscar into a 20 gallon tank? Sure, but that doesn't make the first behavior right, does it? I am not a fan of the trend in society today of relativism, and that's what this is. When I get pulled over for speeding by 5mph over the speed limit, I shouldn't be excused because someone else is speeding by 20mph. Both are illegal, and both have consequences. We should do what is right, not something less egregiously wrong than someone else.


I feel for the fish like common plecs that are bought by folks who are ignorant of what the fish will become. But, that doesn't mean I should buy them all so that someone worse than me can't. We should give the proper advice and maybe, just maybe the word will spread and "common plecs" will become far less "common" in LFS. And then maybe the more suitable species will take their place. The free market and profits and losses will be the only way stores stop caring fish that aren't suitable for the vast majority of tanks. Maybe if people bought less common plecs or returned more common plecs there would be less bred in the trade. Same goes for many of the other "monster" fish in the trade that have no place in small tanks. Also, perhaps if enough people get the word out, then the smaller tanks wouldn't be so wide spread as well, since there are virtually no fish that can be kept in tanks smaller than 10 gallons and very few are suitable for that size. Education is the key and it is the job of those who KNOW the proper way to treat the animals to spread the word, maybe then, just maybe, we will see a change in the hobby.
 
I have 200 bronze corys in a 30 litre tank, What cho gotta say about that eh! :hyper:
 
I cannot see the thinking behind this?
If you do buy a fish that's too small for your tank your more than likely going to end up with some sort if dificulties, let's not play silly here. Guidelines are only that, guideline, unfortunately, you can go in and buy any fish for any size tank in most fish shops, if you can live with this after you knowing you shouldn't then you crack on and suffer the consequences, talk yourself into getting an oscar for that tank of yours, it seems that's what your trying to do and you obviously don't feel that comfortable about it other wise you wouldn't be asking for help in backing up your thinking. You won't find it with me.
Would you like to see shops refuse to sell people fish who cannot house them properly with adequate filtration? Such as a common plec, oscars, bala's, severum, BGK, red tailed cats, to name but a few fish that I see in every fish shop I go into.

We cannot change the world unless we change ourselves.
I don't want an oscar. Right now 30 inches is the longest tank I can have. No I wouldn't shove an oscar in it. I honestly don't even know what I'd do with a fish that size. I'll stick with my Firemouths and convicts, thank you. Yes, some people would shove an oscar in a 30 gallon tank with the minimum filtration, heating, and very little tank maintenance. So what are you going to do to the person that has an oscar in a 55 gallon aquarium, over filtered, by itself, with sufficient heating and maintenance, get rid of it? It's gonna be too big for your tank? Get that tank with an extra foot of width or else you're being a bad fishkeeper?

The world doesn't progress over night. You can't tell a person who had a red tailed shark that lived happily for their whole life span with no growth stunting in their 25 gallon 2.5 foot tank that they were being inhumane, you can't tell oldschool fish keepers like my aunt and uncle that they've been wrong for the past 20 years. Sure, some of their methods are outdated, but their fish have solemnly experienced shortened life, stunting, and disease. You can't tell a zebra danio enthusiast with seemingly happy fish that only has a 2 foot long tank that their fish will not be happy unless they double their length.

A lot of the things I hear on this forum are seemingly new theories. My first fish tank as a kid most certainly was not 4 feet long. it was more like 36 inches at most. And my older brother always loved zebra danios, we always had a big school of zebra danios. Some of those zebra danios lived at least 5 years, some of them lived a little less. They all seemed happy, none of them were dying and gasping for air on the top of the tank, none of them were being picked on by other fish, they just lived on. And that's the biggest part of living.

If you were locked in a smaller space than what you so prefer, what would be the first thing you'd do? Try to escape, right? Then what? Try to survive? you wouldn't be like "Oh man, my space is too small, this life just isn't worth it" and give up

A lot of these fish aren't even being put in an a space where they -can- survive, the water isn't filtered, the space is way way too small, the water perimeters and are unsightly, you know the drill. So if we give the fish a smaller space to live comfortably, is it really inhumane?

Steering past the idea that this post is telling people to go out and get this fish because other people do worse, looking at people (I've done it too, I'll say it again) who tell people to take fish that they already have, back to the store. Fish that can fit comfortably in the space they can provide, but could use more room. What are the chances they will get a better home when they're resold? Pretty slim, if you ask me. This is not pointing at people who have an oscar in a 30 gallon tank, or have silver dollars in 5 gallons tanks, or have common plecos in 15 gallon tanks. This is pointing at people who have RTBS in 3 foot tanks, zebra danios in 2 foot tanks, ect ect ect
 
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Steering past the idea that this post is telling people to go out and get this fish because other people do worse, looking at people (I've done it too, I'll say it again) who tell people to take fish that they already have, back to the store. Fish that can fit comfortably in the space they can provide, but could use more room. What are the chances they will get a better home when they're resold? Pretty slim, if you ask me. This is not pointing at people who have an oscar in a 30 gallon tank, or have silver dollars in 5 gallons tanks, or have common plecos in 15 gallon tanks. This is pointing at people who have RTBS in 3 foot tanks, zebra danios in 2 foot tanks, ect ect ect
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But what's the alternative? To say nothing to these new fish keepers and tell them the tank size is fine when it really isn't? I can agree with you in the respect that I wouldn't be as quick to shout 'take it back' as some, but I also wouldn't want to be silent. I made my mistakes when I started, but I very quickly got educated- because people here weren't afraid to tell me 'no, you're doing it wrong'...even though the way I was taking care of my fish was already better than someone who just doesn't care.
 
People used to play with mercury with their bare hands. People used to think that smoking was harmless. People used to do a lot of things that have since been found to be harmful or unnecessary. Should we just continue to spout "old school" ideas that have been proven to be wrong now. Advances in science and knowledge continues to build. Should we just continue to perpetuate the old way, or should we educate folks and try to get things right? Ultimately, my hope is that ALL fishkeepers keep fish in proper conditions, not just in "so-so" or "not so bad" conditions, or "better than others" tanks. Is that the goal?

If you are limited in your tank size, then you are limited in fish you can keep. Wouldn't it just be better to keep fish that fit within these parameters than try to cram in a fish that doesn't? If everyone did that, then maybe, just maybe the aquarium trade should include better ratios of the proper fish that match up with the tanks. Huge fish shouldn't be more readily available and cheaper than fish that fit in the proper tanks. For example, my LFS had common plecs for $1 each. The week before they had BN plecos for $5.50. I bought the BN and just shook my head at the commons. In the LFS, its very hard to tell the difference. And there is generally not much difference in how they are displayed. There is no real mention that the commons grow to be 4 times the size of the BNs.
 
I do have kind of a "sister" thought to all this.

I've come to rate this forum and it's experienced users so highly that if I ever had to give my fish up or rehome any of them, I would not be happy giving them to anyone who wasn't an active member of this forum. I've almost come to see the casual fish keeper as stupid and untrustworthy and I don't know if that's sensible or paranoid?
 
Pondering this some more, I think fish need equal animal rights!

You here all the time about people being criminally charged for cruelty to animals for dogs, cats, horses and such. Never for a tankful of fish that get flushed after an ammonia spike, or starved, or ???
We just don't think of fish like we do for furry critters.
We could split hairs about how large a tank is required for the size of a given fish...or how many fish are appropriate for a given size tank...or how many shoaling fish are required for a school...
But until most people rethink the humanity of our responsibility to aquatic creatures, it's all kinda moot.

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My fish are no different to me than my cats are. I research and look to the advice of the people here for advice on how to create the best home for my fish. I can honestly say I have learned a lot and my tanks are well on their way to being awesome habitats :)

I understand what people are saying about the LFS though. A fish that is in an overcrowded tank in the fish store would probably be better of in a 30g tank of someone who cares. But the reality is, what is going to happen to that fish when it is too big for the tank? Are you going to buy a new tank for that fish?

If you cannot keep a fish in a suitable environment, then the fish is probably better waiting at the petstore for someone who can. Just like you don't run out and adopt a dog on a whim and then realize, oh, I can't afford to neuter/spay this animal or get him his shots. I can't afford to feed this animal. Man I am tired of this animal. This is how we end up with strays. Or in the fishes case, fish getting flushed or dying in small tanks.
 
Until people stop thinking of themselves as better than any other living thing and therefore has the right to treat all other living things any way they please, this will keep happening. Animals will continue to be treated badly by humans who choose to keep them as "pets" or worse. I think there may be hope, but I doubt it will be in our lifetimes. Just think how badly animals were treated 100 years ago. It is getting a tad bit better, but not quickly.
 
Until people stop thinking of themselves as better than any other living thing and therefore has the right to treat all other living things any way they please, this will keep happening. Animals will continue to be treated badly by humans who choose to keep them as "pets" or worse. I think there may be hope, but I doubt it will be in our lifetimes. Just think how badly animals were treated 100 years ago. It is getting a tad bit better, but not quickly.
True that......I have always been an animal lover myself. My cats are spoiled rotten and seriously cannot do anything wrong lol. They look at me with them big eyes (yes, like puss in boots) and i just giggle, pick em up and love em! I wish that all people could be like that towards their pets. It sickens me when i see those shows on animal planet....animals cops? or something like that. I seriosly cant watch it.
 
Remember people, we say that the lfs should stop selling common plecos, oscars and such, most of them are just in it for the money, they dont care if this fish is going to live in a jar, most just care about the money.
Some lfs however are responsible and question you about your tank and make sure the fish is suitable for them but they are far and few between.
 
Thanks for all the different perspectives and such, guys. No, I'm not planning on improperly stock my tank because x fish is cooler than y fish or whatever, just thought it was worth throwing in for debate.
 

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