New Weekly "off Topic" Topic No. 25 (23/07/12)

[Ludwig Venter]

There is an old saying that says "of food and literature, the English produce the best and consume the worst".....

Now I am not English speaking and grew up in an all Afrikaans rural town with mainly cattle- and maize farmers.... the only exposure I ever had to the English language was at school, where English was a compulsory subject, but I hardly had the opportunity to practically apply my grammar learning during my growing up days....

However..... here on the forum and in my working environment I have a lot to do with English people who grew up in English homes with English being their mother tongue and I often have to withold from chipping in and correcting their grammar which is appauling to say the least...

I find it a lot easier to express myself in English than in my own language simply because of the vast vocabualary available in English....

This week..... do you think that the English language is abused by the English speaking person and if so.... what would the reason for this be? ... Are you particular about using the correct English when you communicate .... (and this goes for spelling as well)..... (just as an example).... I will often hear someone say: "There's a lot of people in the world"... is that right to say or is it wrong?.... I would pick up the mistake because I learnt about the rules applicable to tenses, male or female, single or plural and the likes.... but the average English speaking person will not think twice if they heard that statement....

 

[StandbySetting]

I agree, some peoples grasp on the English language over here in the UK is diabolical and through no fault of their own, the national curriculum focuses too much on English literature and not enough on English language, a common problem amongst those of my generation is not being able to distinguish between or use the correct there, their and they're, or your and you're. I was never taught this at school and was left to figure it out for myself. I don't mind if someone makes the odd grammatical error or spelling error, what matters to me is that they're communicating to the best of their ability and not being lazy by using text speak.

 

[ian]

^^^What he said.


(is that bad English?)

 

[Akasha72]

My two-pennath (a Yorkshire phrase I believe)

The main issue with England is the different dialects depending on where you are from. Here in Yorkshire we have many phrases and words that have been adapted according to the area of Yorkshire you are from.

For instance, my maternal grandmother was from Mexborough. As an example she'd say 'fetch me a clout' (pass me a cloth) or 'it's nithering o't the're why ant ya got ya shimmy on' which translated is 'it's very cold outside, why havn't you got a vest on'

My paternal family was from Bradford and it was all nobberts and summats with them

To the people in the south this way of speaking could be confusing. I know this as my first boyfriend was from Portsmouth and would often sit around or dinner table with a bemused frown in his face!!

My pet hate though is text speak. I refuse to rise to it. Yes, I use text speak with my friends on my mobile but that's a money saving thing. Text speak though is spreading into all things. I often see it used on this forum and there is no excuse for it I'm afraid. A lot of it I don't understand though. The first time someone sent me C U L8tr it took me a week to work out that it meant 'I'll see you later'


I'm also agreeing with standbysetting aswell. I'm 40 and my English lessons wern't so bad really. My spelling was always good and it still isn't so bad. The spelling and grammer of the younger generations now is absolutely terrible and the only ones to blame are the people that taught them

Sorry for the ramble

 

[Noahs ark6]

I agree, some peoples grasp on the English language over here in the UK is diabolical and through no fault of their own, the national curriculum focuses too much on English literature and not enough on English language, a common problem amongst those of my generation is not being able to distinguish between or use the correct there, their and they're, or your and you're. I was never taught this at school and was left to figure it out for myself. I don't mind if someone makes the odd grammatical error or spelling error, what matters to me is that they're communicating to the best of their ability and not being lazy by using text speak.

The spelling and grammer of the younger generations now is absolutely terrible

Woh, lets not categorize. I'm only young and i think my english is superior to that of alot of adults

 

[FishBlast]

I may not be the best at English grammar, and I sometimes make mistakes of doubling letters where they shouldn't be doubled, and once confused plaid with played, but out of 3 friends from the UK that I know, 2 of them (both guys) type stuff that is barely understandable in English and one (who is a woman) actually pays attention to what she writes.
The mistakes:
the usual [they're, their and there; your and you're]
wrong use of plural / singular forms [They is best]
sometimes missing key verbs [So I to the mall.]
constantly misspelling a word throughout the convo. [planets --> plants]
mistaking words based on how they sound [our --> are]

I have seen some members of this forum make these mistakes constantly too.

I've learned English by watching Cartoon Network as a kid. As a result, I've learned the American version of English, but without the "gonna", "wanna", "outta" etc. I can speak both the British English and American English, although I feel more relaxed speaking the latter. And when writing certain forms of words, I prefer the American version.
Note that this bugs one of the aforementioned 3 friends. He constantly complains that I use COLOR instead of COLOUR (COLOR, in American English, is correct) but fails to see that he doesn't know the difference between THERE, THEIR and THEY'RE or YOUR and YOU'RE (which, in either of the two versions of the English language, are not to be misused).

But, to be honest, if I had a penny for every Romanian I've met who cannot use the Romanian language properly (in speaking and writing), I'd be rich by now. It seems like, at least in the UK, America and Romania, people tend to neglect their mother language quite often.

 

[SamLovesCorys]

Yeah, I'm slightly offended by the sweeping generalisation as well!

 

[hensonc4098]

I was taught french at school, and a lot of focus was put on learning the correct grammar, tenses and contexts for the words we used.

In our "english" classes however, the focus was instead upon finding "underlying themes" of a text. To me, this was pointless as it did not teach us proper grammar and is something that I certainly have never used since!

I think it doesn't help that in a lot of areas, the accent used to speak the language makes words sound different to how they are spelt, and this doesn't help people's spelling. Or, if you live in certain areas of scotland for example, there is a lot of "slang" language that is used in speech which is grammatically incorrect, but creeps into people's writing since they have used the words all their life.

 

[FishBlast]

I was taught french at school, and a lot of focus was put on learning the correct grammar, tenses and contexts for the words we used.

In our "english" classes however, the focus was instead upon finding "underlying themes" of a text. To me, this was pointless as it did not teach us proper grammar and is something that I certainly have never used since!

I think it doesn't help that in a lot of areas, the accent used to speak the language makes words sound different to how they are spelt, and this doesn't help people's spelling. Or, if you live in certain areas of scotland for example, there is a lot of "slang" language that is used in speech which is grammatically incorrect, but creeps into people's writing since they have used the words all their life.

We've had classes focusing on the use of words, as well as learning the meaning of text. Whenever a new word appeared (for example "lazily" in some text about ocean creatures), our teacher would explain why it was like that.

We've also had French classes focusing on grammar and tenses... but I have forgotten almost everything about French by now. I never did like French, but I was pretty good at reading it, complete with the hosed-nose accent LOL! Also, I used to be able to translate French to Romanian, despite never hearing of certain words. It seemed like some kind of puzzle to me.

Romania still has peasants speaking in Moldavian or Oltean dialect, they sound pretty funny and mostly grammatically incorrect, aside from the misspelling and different words that replace more technical names. I.e: Potato in Romanian is Cartof. But in Moldavian, you can have Barabule.

 

[MBOU]

I guess a lot of it is down to dialect... though a lot of places in the UK... just listening to the way people speak makes me want to walk around with earplugs in! In fact, in public i generally have headphones in even if not listening to anything!

I'm terrible with typing as i get very lazy but i'm also dyslexic. Sometimes when I am talking the dyslexia shows and i prounounce even the simplest of words wrong. Though I usualy realise straight away and am horribly embarassed.

I grew up very near Luton where pretty much everyone have a very 'chav' sort of dialect.. it's all 'innit' this and 'ennit' that. My parents NEVER let me speak like that, if they caught me using words like that they would make me write lines so to speak, spelling it and saying it correctly until I remembered not to use slang. Maybe it sounds more cruel than it was but it was part of teaching me to spell anyway!

But I moved to near Reading when i was 11 and although this area is a lot more 'posh' than near Luton, I got picked on for having a really posh accent! No one could place my accent but they would all go on about how I "talked posh"!

I also have a habit of picking up the dialect of people around me, the absolute worst is Scottish dialects and Yorkshire too. Most of my family come from Yorkshire and I believe we originate from the area too and do find myself using the words 'nowt' instead of nothing and 'eee' when surprised and refering to people as 'ducky' and actually take on the accent too haha. Or I listen to a lot of Stuart MacBride audiobooks and his accent is, i believe from Aberdeen and very harsh Scottish accent but I love it and pick it up very quickly.

I do REALLY hate dialects that involve the word 'innit' and anything remotely similar, it really gets on my nerves. I nearly got myself in trouble when a friend and I stopped at Tescos in the middle of Essex, near Colchester I think. Just watching the people loud mouthing it and being really gobby as they walked around in the most ridiculous shade of orange fake tan and gold bangles and makeup... I couldnt help but look at my friend and say "wow... I had hoped they were only like this on TV, not in real life!" but I said it a little loudly and we had to turn and run

 

[Ludwig Venter]

Other words, which also bugs me endlessly is when someone talks about that e-mail which I "send" you in stead of "sent" and then the constant mixup between "advise" and "advice".....

By te way.... did anyone spot the mistake in my opening example?.... whats wrong with the sentence when I say "There's a lot of people in the world".....

 

[StandbySetting]

Wrong tense, should be 'There are a lot of people in the world', am I correct?

 

[FishBlast]

I guess a lot of it is down to dialect... though a lot of places in the UK... just listening to the way people speak makes me want to walk around with earplugs in! In fact, in public i generally have headphones in even if not listening to anything!

I'm terrible with typing as i get very lazy but i'm also dyslexic. Sometimes when I am talking the dyslexia shows and i prounounce even the simplest of words wrong. Though I usualy realise straight away and am horribly embarassed.

I grew up very near Luton where pretty much everyone have a very 'chav' sort of dialect.. it's all 'innit' this and 'ennit' that. My parents NEVER let me speak like that, if they caught me using words like that they would make me write lines so to speak, spelling it and saying it correctly until I remembered not to use slang. Maybe it sounds more cruel than it was but it was part of teaching me to spell anyway!

But I moved to near Reading when i was 11 and although this area is a lot more 'posh' than near Luton, I got picked on for having a really posh accent! No one could place my accent but they would all go on about how I "talked posh"!

I also have a habit of picking up the dialect of people around me, the absolute worst is Scottish dialects and Yorkshire too. Most of my family come from Yorkshire and I believe we originate from the area too and do find myself using the words 'nowt' instead of nothing and 'eee' when surprised and refering to people as 'ducky' and actually take on the accent too haha. Or I listen to a lot of Stuart MacBride audiobooks and his accent is, i believe from Aberdeen and very harsh Scottish accent but I love it and pick it up very quickly.

I do REALLY hate dialects that involve the word 'innit' and anything remotely similar, it really gets on my nerves. I nearly got myself in trouble when a friend and I stopped at Tescos in the middle of Essex, near Colchester I think. Just watching the people loud mouthing it and being really gobby as they walked around in the most ridiculous shade of orange fake tan and gold bangles and makeup... I couldnt help but look at my friend and say "wow... I had hoped they were only like this on TV, not in real life!" but I said it a little loudly and we had to turn and run

Uh... looks like things are worse than I expected.
I have yet to hear / see people using "innit" and "ennit", though "ennit" sounds a bit like "aint", but even then it's "aint it?"
But what could be worse would be using "ye olde English".

Personally, if I'm around friends, I'll speak like an American.
If it's about serious business, I'll speak like a British person. Which also means stressing the word CAN to differentiate it from the word that defines a TIN CAN. lol.

Wrong tense, should be 'There are a lot of people in the world', am I correct?

I've heard some say peoples, which I never could understand if it works like "There are a lot of peoples". People seems to refer to a group of humans, saying that there are a lot of groups can imply the use of "peoples" would work. I am not sure on this one.

 

[Ludwig Venter]

Wrong tense, should be 'There are a lot of people in the world', am I correct?

Almost got it Standby.... it should be as you say "There are a lot".... but it is not the tenses rule which applies (tenses being present or past), but it is the singular/plural rule.... more than one "are" and one "is".... This is the most common mistake made by South African English... the is and are (sometimes even get "I is")..... and then the tenses which is have, had, & has also cause confussion.

 

[FishBlast]

Wrong tense, should be 'There are a lot of people in the world', am I correct?

Almost got it Standby.... it should be as you say "There are a lot".... but it is not the tenses rule which applies (tenses being present or past), but it is the singular/plural rule.... more than one "are" and one "is".... This is the most common mistake made by South African English... the is and are (sometimes even get "I is")..... and then the tenses which is have, had, & has also cause confussion.

So are you referring to it as "There are a lot of persons" or "There are a lot of peoples" as in, multiple groups of persons? This is what I find confusing here. People = plural of persons, but it can be used as a singular to define 1 group, then if you have more groups, they are peoples.