Farming, The Environment, Morality And Vegetarians

[geo7x]

Humans are born with canine teeth seeing that they are ment for flesh.

you cant just make up these things without any evidence to back it up.

There are a number of things that set humans (or the Homo genus if you like) apart from the "true" carnivores.

• Humans lack the sharp pointed teeth and claws that would be used to tear into the flesh of the prey.
  
• Carnivores have jaws that move up and down with little lateral (side-to-side) movement. Humans do have alot of lateral movement in the jaw, true carnivores have jaws that make the above shearing up and down motion.
  
• A head shape that allows the carnivore to dig into their prey. The last time I looked my face is relatively flat, carnivores have a long face with a snout.
  
• And carnivores usually swallow their food whole, as opposed to humans who chew their food. Also, carnivores generally do not have starch-digesting enzymes in their saliva, whereas humans do.

That is a very brief selection of the, im guessing, many things that suggest that humans perhaps werent designed to be eating meat. That said, none of this means that humans shouldnt be eating meat, i'm just putting this argument across because by the following that you said:

Humans are born with canine teeth seeing that they are ment for flesh.

you are saying that we are meant to eat meat, so i put across that list to show you that perhaps you should have worded it more carefully, as we most certainly are not meant to be put into the same level of carniverosity (not sure if thats a word but hey) as lions, or tigers, or hyenas etc etc, which you are implying.
However it would also not be true to say that we shouldn't be eating meat full stop, as despite the fact that our physique is perhaps not up to that of animals such as lions to be up to the job of being a 'true' carnivore, there are other aspects to think about.

The previous list doesnt cover the fact that members of the homo genus and 'true' carnivores have completely different feeding habits in the wild. Also our intelligence and technological advances allow us to easily overcome our physical limitations. We don't need sharp teeth, powerful jaws, or claws to capture and butcher animals because we have used (since our inception as a genus ~2.5 million years ago) tools.

So it is perhaps wrong to say that humans shouldn't be eating meat altogether, but i think that saying, as you have implied, that we are carnivores and are definitely meant for flesh is even more wrong to say, as our anatomy definitely suggests otherwise, and by going by anatomy alone we should probably be on more of a vegetarian based diet. However, things are complicated as our ability to use tools and technology means that we can easily be on a meaty diet, but whether it was 'meant to be' is hard to say for sure.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Hm well i'd also like to add to the other side of the debate with meat eating that chimps have been observed in the wild hunting, killing and eating monkeys. Chimps were thought of up until relatively recently to only eat things like fruit, flowers and leaves and things etc until people (like David Attenborough) were able to catch chimps on film carrying out hunts and killing and devouring monkeys (which they killed with their teeth and hands).
Babboons have also been often filmed killing and eating other animals, i remember seeing a documentory once where they filmed some babboons killing and eat flamengos (sp?). Although babboons have big canines, they aren't primarily used for meat eating though, and are more for show or used for fighting with each other. Chimps have pretty measily canines in comparison to babboons though except they are more than capable of using them to eat meat with.
Although neither of these animals are direct ancestors of us, they can shed light on our early evolution and how we evolved to use and make things like tools (which has been studied in chimps) and kill and eat other animals etc.

So you don't need to have the exact tools like sharp teeth or claws to evolve to kill animals and eat meat, meat eating played a very important part in our evolution particularly with brain development since meat is full of the proteins and fats that we need to have enough energy to put towards developing a bigger brain. If we hadn't started eating meat, it is unlikely we would have been able to evolve such big brains so quickly as vegetables and fruits in general do not carry enough or much of the essential proteins, vitamins (like various b vitamins for nerve growth) or fats needed for brain growth, or are simply very costly energy wise to digest or simply take too much time to prepare and gather etc.

However, when it comes down to it, we are not carnivores nor are we herbivores- we are omnivores, scavengers and predators combined.

Personally, i think there's nothing unhealthy (obviously depending on various factors) or unesarsary (depending on how you look at it) about having a little bit of meat in the diet, particularly red meat and some fish. People don't have to eat meat now days since due to all the shipping of hundreds of types of fruit and veg not native or in season to our countries. Vegetarians can still have a pretty varied diet, however vegans still need to supliment their diet with b vitamins which are only really found in animal products, otherwise they risk suffering from nerve damage from their vegan diet- i think a lot of these supliments are derived from animal products either way though, which kinda defeats the whole vegan diet point theory. If we were living 100 years ago, leading a healthy and balanced vegetarian diet would have been almost impossible due to a lot of fruit and veg being out of season a lot of the time and there would have also been a lot more limited selection of such foods.
But i cannot and will never support such forms of farming such as battery farming as they are immoral, cruel and unesarsary in my honest opinion, and i would rather be a vegetarian any day that eat those sorts of animal products if i was ever forced into the position where such products were all i could afford. Free range (and preferably organic) animal products are the way for me and all i'll accept and support as far as i'm concerned when it comes to farming and stuff .

 

[Danno]

This is going to sound blunt but-

I don't care what the previous life was of the animal im going to consume that is going to be chewed, masicated, disolved and excreted by me. I don't care if the Cow/Chicken/etc had a wife, husband, child, career...as long as it is tasty.

This is my view on that.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

This is going to sound blunt but-

I don't care what the previous life was of the animal im going to consume that is going to be chewed, masicated, disolved and excreted by me. I don't care if the Cow/Chicken/etc had a wife, husband, child, career...as long as it is tasty.

This is my view on that.

So are you against animal cruelty or not, honestly? Sounds like to me you couldn't care less either way (makes me wonder why you even bother to try and create a good environment for your fish to live in if you are not at all concerned about the welfare of animals either way).

 

[geo7x]

Hm well i'd also like to add to the other side of the debate with meat eating that chimps have been observed in the wild hunting, killing and eating monkeys.

of course, thats why i say it shouldnt be automatically presumed that we shouldnt be eating meat because animals like chimps have very different hunting techniques to lions or other carnivores.

What im saying is that we shouldnt be put into the same kind of 'group' as carnivores, we are nothing like lions or tigers, our anatomy is not up to doing the jobs that they do to both hunt their prey and eat it, but some people suggest that we are 'carnivores' which is a very flawed thing to say.

By the way, you said it was the 'other side to the debate' if you read my post i tried to make it clear that i am not saying that we are not meant to eat meat, im saying that people shouldnt say that we are like lions etc.

If we hadn't started eating meat, it is unlikely we would have been able to evolve such big brains so quickly as vegetables and fruits in general do not carry enough or much of the essential proteins, vitamins (like various b vitamins for nerve growth) or fats needed for brain growth, or are simply very costly energy wise to digest or simply take too much time to prepare and gather etc.

whilst i see what you are saying im not sure that you have enough proof to base anything on this as it seems pretty vague.
You talk about vegetables and fruits 'in general', now im no expert on this so i cant really prove you wrong, nor can i claim that i can say anything less vaguely or more accurately than you but im sure there are more things to consider such as pulses and grains which have alot of nutrients in and also alot of carbohydrate for energy which you describe as 'very costly' which may not be so costly if you take into account all the seeds, grains, pulses and vegetables that are packed with carbohydrates.
Also, its being very particular, but we always talk about dairy as being something that wouldnt be eaten if it werent for farmed animals, but we have to remember that for some animals eggs take up alot of what they eat, by going up to birds nests, or digging for turtle eggs on the beach.
We also seem to be taking meat out of the equation, but what about fish? Personally i dont classify fish as a meat. Big, strong and intelligent animals like bears have fish take up alot of their diet, and fish is very nutritional, and gives alot of the same nutrients as meat has which you wouldnt get otherwise, and of course there is always the cliche saying that "fish is good for your brain" and all that.

Again, im not saying that we would be where we are today without meat, but there are alot of things to consider, and we should think about maybe how 'we' would have adapted our diet to make sure we get all the nutrients we needed to get where we are.

 

[nmonks]

Absolutely fair point. If more people said that up front, instead of trying to defend factory farming on the basis of allowing poor people to have McNuggets, then life would be a lot simpler. If animal welfare doesn't matter to you, that's fine.

However, I could put two steaks in front of you, one organically (or at least traditionally) farmed and the other intensively farmed. And there's absolutely no question which would taste better. Good meat (like anything else) costs money. The cheaper the meat, the more corners have been cut. Instead of grass, the cows eat God knows what (hence Mad Cow). Chickens get fish meal instead of yummy bugs and grains. Instead of growing at a normal rate, they get hormones and antibiotics. At every stage, the cheapest option is the worse option: feeding, slaughtering, processing. Cheap meat is full of water, artificially coloured, not aged long enough, laced with chemicals, and in every way an inferior product. Supermarkets have been ripping us off for decades because most of us don't know what real meat tastes of. Do yourself a favour and find a decent butcher who supplies properly reared meat. Cook simply and enjoy. Then you'll join the club. Honestly!

Cheers, Neale

This is going to sound blunt but-

I don't care what the previous life was of the animal im going to consume that is going to be chewed, masicated, disolved and excreted by me. I don't care if the Cow/Chicken/etc had a wife, husband, child, career...as long as it is tasty.

This is my view on that.

 

[Danno]

This is going to sound blunt but-

I don't care what the previous life was of the animal im going to consume that is going to be chewed, masicated, disolved and excreted by me. I don't care if the Cow/Chicken/etc had a wife, husband, child, career...as long as it is tasty.

This is my view on that.

So are you against animal cruelty or not, honestly? Sounds like to me you couldn't care less either way (makes me wonder why you even bother to try and create a good environment for your fish to live in if you are not at all concerned about the welfare of animals either way).

Now that my friend is jumping to conclusions, plus flamming.

I care very much about my fish tank and pets. But if I eat a hamburger, I don't want to know about the cows life right before I eat it.


E D I T:

I just saw this:

you cant just make up these things without any evidence to back it up.

There are a number of things that set humans (or the Homo genus if you like) apart from the "true" carnivores.

Humans lack the sharp pointed teeth and claws that would be used to tear into the flesh of the prey.

Carnivores have jaws that move up and down with little lateral (side-to-side) movement. Humans do have alot of lateral movement in the jaw, true carnivores have jaws that make the above shearing up and down motion.

A head shape that allows the carnivore to dig into their prey. The last time I looked my face is relatively flat, carnivores have a long face with a snout.

And carnivores usually swallow their food whole, as opposed to humans who chew their food. Also, carnivores generally do not have starch-digesting enzymes in their saliva, whereas humans do.

That is a very brief selection of the, im guessing, many things that suggest that humans perhaps werent designed to be eating meat. That said, none of this means that humans shouldnt be eating meat, i'm just putting this argument across because by the following that you said:

Do you really think that we could eat meat with just our molars?...Common heh

 

[geo7x]

This is going to sound blunt but-

I don't care what the previous life was of the animal im going to consume that is going to be chewed, masicated, disolved and excreted by me. I don't care if the Cow/Chicken/etc had a wife, husband, child, career...as long as it is tasty.

This is my view on that.

So are you against animal cruelty or not, honestly? Sounds like to me you couldn't care less either way (makes me wonder why you even bother to try and create a good environment for your fish to live in if you are not at all concerned about the welfare of animals either way).

Now that my friend is jumping to conclusions, plus flamming.

I care very much about my fish tank and pets. But if I eat a hamburger, I don't want to know about the cows life right before I eat it.

I'm not trying to cause an argument here, and im not going to judge you on what you said, but you cant expect to say something like you did and get away without someone having a go at you.


edited to add:

Do you really think that we could eat meat with just our molars?...

i dont quite understand what you are saying by this, and i wish you would give us some proper evidence other than just giving us the odd passing comment.
The information i gave (which was well researched) shows that anatomy wise, the reasons why we shouldnt be eating meat far outweighs the reasons why we should.
I dont see how you can come to a conclusion based on our incredibly undeveloped (if we were meant to be carnivores then undeveloped is the right term imo) canine teeth, please read what i said and you will see how our anatomy really isnt up to being a carnivore, even the one bit of 'evidence' that you gave isnt valid.

 

[Danno]

I'm not trying to cause an argument here, and im not going to judge you on what you said, but you cant expect to say something like you did and get away without someone having a go at you.

Im not trying to "Get away" with a comment. The post said voice your opinion (in other words). So I did.

 

[geo7x]

I'm not trying to cause an argument here, and im not going to judge you on what you said, but you cant expect to say something like you did and get away without someone having a go at you.

Im not trying to "Get away" with a comment. The post said voice your opinion (in other words). So I did.

indeed there is nothing wrong with voicing your opinion on a forum, but to word it like that and expect to (i will repeat the phrase) get away with it is not wrong, just naive.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Absolutely fair point. If more people said that up front, instead of trying to defend factory farming on the basis of allowing poor people to have McNuggets, then life would be a lot simpler. If animal welfare doesn't matter to you, that's fine.

However, I could put two steaks in front of you, one organically (or at least traditionally) farmed and the other intensively farmed. And there's absolutely no question which would taste better. Good meat (like anything else) costs money. The cheaper the meat, the more corners have been cut. Instead of grass, the cows eat God knows what (hence Mad Cow). Chickens get fish meal instead of yummy bugs and grains. Instead of growing at a normal rate, they get hormones and antibiotics. At every stage, the cheapest option is the worse option: feeding, slaughtering, processing. Cheap meat is full of water, artificially coloured, not aged long enough, laced with chemicals, and in every way an inferior product. Supermarkets have been ripping us off for decades because most of us don't know what real meat tastes of. Do yourself a favour and find a decent butcher who supplies properly reared meat. Cook simply and enjoy. Then you'll join the club. Honestly!

Cheers, Neale

This is going to sound blunt but-

I don't care what the previous life was of the animal im going to consume that is going to be chewed, masicated, disolved and excreted by me. I don't care if the Cow/Chicken/etc had a wife, husband, child, career...as long as it is tasty.

This is my view on that.

Yes regardless of cruelty or morality or anything like that, a cow which has been allowed to graze real grass outside in real sunlight and allowed to stretch its legs and socialise and grow normally etc is always going to taste better than some cow which has been stuck indoors its entire life, fed hormones and chemicals to put on lots of fat and fed poor quality powdered foods etc etc.

I once cooked some bacon for a friend and it was free range and organic and of very good qaulity (not pumped full of water and cut into super thin fatty slices like most other bacon) and my friend said it was the best bacon they'd ever eaten- tasted great to me too.

When you see top chefs on tv, you never see them shopping for bargain price battery eggs, you always see them shopping around the farmers markets and similar places for the best quality and freshest produce. These chefs know their buisness, and they know there's a taste difference in the way animals are farmed etc.


Danno the only reason why your McDonald and KFC etc burgers and chicken nuggets taste so good and more-ish to you is because of all the MSG they put into everything (ever heard of mcdonalds "special ingredient" or sauce? Its MSG. It can also apparently cause migraine/headaches if eaten in too larger quantities, and is highly addictive too).

 

[Danno]

Tokis, I never eat fast food. When I made a hamburger I go to the butcher and get some meat ground freshly in front of me.

geox7, please do not call me naive as it means a lack of infomation, judgement or experiance. Just because I disagree with some statement from other people, I do not call them hippies do I?

 

[geo7x]

geox7, please do not call me naive as it means a lack of infomation, judgement or experiance. Just because I disagree with some statement from other people, I do not call them hippies do I?

no, but personally if i said something as bluntly as you did i would expect anger from someone else. You know that some people who have posted in this topic have strong feelings that are against what you said. I say again, it was not wrong to say what you did, but it perhaps would have been wiser to at least word it in a less blunt way.

anyway, its over with now do lets get back on topic.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Tokis, I never eat fast food. When I made a hamburger I go to the butcher and get some meat ground freshly in front of me.

geox7, please do not call me naive as it means a lack of infomation, judgement or experiance. Just because I disagree with some statement from other people, I do not call them hippies do I?

Then that at the very least is better for your health. But at least in my humble opinion, i think you should pay more concern over where your meat comes from sometimes (and i don't mean just knowing the shops name ).

 

[OohFeeshy]

RE whether humans are 'designed' to eat meat or not- I think it's more a case of complete omnivorisation (if that's a word). One of the fundamental ruels of biology is you can't be good at everything- we can eat both meat and plants but can't do either terribly well (compared to herbivores and carnivores). While meat eating could well be considered an important step in cultural evolution (better source of energy than plants, so more free time etc.), with today's culture, where you can get whatever you want, when you want, it isn't really the case anymore. You don't have to catch your own food, nor is it nessecary nutritionally. It's much cheaper to get your protein and such from pulses as opposed to meat, and far better for you. So on that note, there's no real reason to buy the vile rubbish in supermarkets now- personally I think it's the traditional 'meat and two veg' view of meals that encourage that culture. Equally, it's mostly all the fat and gunk from this meat that contributes to the obesity/heart disease culture. I've cut out almost all emat from my diet now, mainly for moral reasons, but at least now I can claim my waistline is due to all those recipies with olive oil You can seriously tell the difference between a decent cut of meat and the trash that is supermarket cheap stuff- the latter is bland, fatty, gristley... Plus there's obviously the moral implications.