Farming, The Environment, Morality And Vegetarians

[Danno]

Not quite geo7x, I never insulted anyone. I was debating the topic. You started to flame buddy

Its a forum for fun (as I must repeat)

 

[geo7x]

it's more a case of complete omnivorisation (if that's a word). One of the fundamental ruels of biology is you can't be good at everything- we can eat both meat and plants but can't do either terribly well (compared to herbivores and carnivores). While meat eating could well be considered an important step in cultural evolution (better source of energy than plants, so more free time etc.), with today's culture, where you can get whatever you want, when you want, it isn't really the case anymore. You don't have to catch your own food, nor is it nessecary nutritionally. It's much cheaper to get your protein and such from pulses as opposed to meat, and far better for you. So on that note, there's no real reason to buy the vile rubbish in supermarkets now- personally I think it's the traditional 'meat and two veg' view of meals that encourage that culture.

i think thats a pretty good brief summary

Danno please outline the bit where i "flamed" i purposely tried to avoid insulting you personally, but i guess its hard to please some people.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

This is going to sound blunt but-

I don't care what the previous life was of the animal im going to consume that is going to be chewed, masicated, disolved and excreted by me. I don't care if the Cow/Chicken/etc had a wife, husband, child, career...as long as it is tasty.

This is my view on that.

So are you against animal cruelty or not, honestly? Sounds like to me you couldn't care less either way (makes me wonder why you even bother to try and create a good environment for your fish to live in if you are not at all concerned about the welfare of animals either way).

Now that my friend is jumping to conclusions, plus flamming.

I care very much about my fish tank and pets. But if I eat a hamburger, I don't want to know about the cows life right before I eat it.

Its not flamming if you don't consider the post i quoted as so.
But thats besides the point (for now).
But there's no need to be sarcastic- of course i'm not saying you should care "if the Cow/Chicken/etc had a wife, husband, child, career...", i'm saying you should care about where the animal came from, the way it was farmed and the quality of the food you are eating.
A tasty bit of meat does not mean that the animal was well looked after nor does it mean it is a good quality peice of meat. If only for your health, should pay more concern over your diet and what you are putting into your mouth- do you disagree with this?

Its a forum for fun (as I must repeat)

True, but the topic is no laughing matter.

 

[Danno]

I just got back and I was pondering something.

Seeing it is on the same subject I thought of 2 things:

1)Fish

We have covered beef and poultry so far, but what about fish? Personally I eat a lot of fish when I am at home. Lots of Flounder, Talapia, and Salmon.

2)Lifestyles

If you guys are vegitarian, I have no problem with it. But I know a lot of vegitarians who think that everyone should be that way and that eating meat is BAD...and so on. Its more or less, the way people are, let them stay that way. Pushing lifestyles onto other people is wrong in my opinion. What do you think?




And for the flamming thing...

indeed there is nothing wrong with voicing your opinion on a forum, but to word it like that and expect to (i will repeat the phrase) get away with it is not wrong, just naive.

Hence calling me naive.

So are you against animal cruelty or not, honestly? Sounds like to me you couldn't care less either way (makes me wonder why you even bother to try and create a good environment for your fish to live in if you are not at all concerned about the welfare of animals either way).

Saying that I don't care about my aquariums.

But we can get past that.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

I just got back and I was pondering something.

Seeing it is on the same subject I thought of 2 things:

1)Fish

We have covered beef and poultry so far, but what about fish? Personally I eat a lot of fish when I am at home. Lots of Flounder, Talapia, and Salmon.

2)Lifestyles

If you guys are vegitarian, I have no problem with it. But I know a lot of vegitarians who think that everyone should be that way and that eating meat is BAD...and so on. Its more or less, the way people are, let them stay that way. Pushing lifestyles onto other people is wrong in my opinion. What do you think?

1. Fish is a concern for me as far as the environment is concerned- most marine fish are not sustainable in the long run and many will go extinct if we continue to fish them as we currently are, fish farming is also misleading and is worse than taking the fish directly out of the wild (as most farmed fish are as juveniles).
Also, trawling is a major concern for the environment and its wildlife and is a very wasteful and distructive form of fishing.

2. I'm not a vegetarian, but then again what you just said about vegetarians pushing their lifestyles in non-vegetarians faces can often be just as much as applied to meat eaters who push their lifestyles in the vegetarians faces etc?
Overal we just gotta respect other people's life style decisions as we have no right to force others to conform to our beliefs- however we can debate with others over such matters like why we choose to live the way we do etc.

 

[geo7x]

i said its naive to word it like you did, meaning you probably should know better than to say something so bluntly when you have seen how strongly some people feel about the subject.

Flaming means posting something that's angry and mean-spirited - the online equivalent of flying off the handle.

i dont see how saying that how you worded it was naive is mean spirited, and i certainly wasnt "flying off the handle"

but anyway it doesnt bother me, if you get offended by such a small thing as that then thats your problem anyway.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

So are you against animal cruelty or not, honestly? Sounds like to me you couldn't care less either way (makes me wonder why you even bother to try and create a good environment for your fish to live in if you are not at all concerned about the welfare of animals either way).

Saying that I don't care about my aquariums.

But we can get past that.

I never said you didn't care about your aquariums, i asked/wondered you why you do when you didn't seem concerned about other animals (at least as far as eating them went). But lets not get side-tracked for now on this.

10 2007, 04:11 PM']

This is going to sound blunt but-

I don't care what the previous life was of the animal im going to consume that is going to be chewed, masicated, disolved and excreted by me. I don't care if the Cow/Chicken/etc had a wife, husband, child, career...as long as it is tasty.

This is my view on that.

 

[Danno]

Lets not nit-pick

 

[-germ-]

I never said you didn't care about your aquariums, i asked/wondered you why you do when you didn't seem concerned about other animals (at least as far as eating them went). But lets not get side-tracked for now on this

Oh please, lets....
Morality, highly amusing topic, how can anyone claim a higher moral standpoint? In any walk of life.....
Excusing the argument that morality is a human invention, so not necessarily of any importance. Also the interesting question "If humans are a product of nature, then isn't anything they do/believe a result of nature anyway?" and possibly the whole nature thing which again is only a word designed to represent a human invention..... hee-hee
So, accepting that words and concepts may have their truth; where does morality and personal belief end and reality begin (reality! probably the most fallible concept mentioned so far!). If i choose to not eat non-organic food or badly farmed meat but still allow, without protest, the industry to roll on unhindered, how can i claim any kudos or feel righteous for my stance?
So i protest as well, and hinder the producers and farmers at fault, as best i can, yet surely without aggressive and physical action i am still not morally cleansed, i'm just as much a piece of the jigsaw as those who purchase the products, if not more so as in order to get involved in the first place i must have some understanding of the issues involved. Yet all i seem to do is hold a placard shouting "down with meat!"
So i plan a little guerilla war.....
Without revolution and self sacrifice no one can truly stand up for an opinion, it is more a case of picking what suits you at that moment in time. Basically a selfish act.
Personally i find no fault with this, selfishness is natural, probably the only actual guiding principal we collectively as humans have to follow, as well as all of the natural world itself.
But to judge another persons opinion is ridiculous......
(that was a Hegelian trap you see, or was it Kant? I forget but in order to state the point, i made myself guilty)
Sorry just trying to find a philisophical tangent to this ickle debate.
But while we sit around talking, refusing to act on issues until we understand our opposition and our own motivations the problem continues snowballing.
Lets debate farming, without any one of us understanding or having any influence over the collective farming community and without being willing to make the sort of stance that would produce instant results.
Lets debate the enviroment, whilst sitting in our cosy homes, with our plastic packaging and every single product we own, in its transport, manufacture having some contribution directly/indirectly toward environmental damage.
Or perhaps morality, while every penny we earn does not go to charity and we are not in disease and famine ridden countries getting our hands dirty attempting to improve the conditions of those not as lucky as us, can we still claim moral highground?
Maybe vegetarianism, when my shoes are made of leather, and my local Tesco will continue selling meat so long as it stands (this is a point, not a suggestion).
We are all self orientated and more often than not hypocrites, those of us with the pomposity to assume moral superiority over others, more than most.
Anyway i enjoyed writing that, but i'm sure its going to get picked apart very soon....
Being an opinion, it will always be fallible
Not flaming/trolling etc.

Peas.....

 

[Miss Wiggle]

We are all self orientated and more often than not hypocrites, those of us with the pomposity to assume moral superiority over others, more than most.

he he i like that, very true

in all honesty whatever stand point you take on moral issues there will always be someone who can say why aren't you doing this as well, why not take it one step further.

it's our personal descision how far we want to go for what we believe in and what level of personal sacrifices we are prepared to make based on our priorities in life. yes to an extent by not doing more we are turning a blind eye and therefore supporting the industry by default. but by spending so much time and effort worrying over this one issue you are turning a blind eye to any number of other equally contentious issues by default and then also supporting other 'bad' industries. there is no possible way we could all support every worth cause financially or in terms of time, and if you tried to in all likleyhood you would find relationships with friends and family would suffer and do they not carry they're own importance too?

we all just have to find a balance between what we believe in and what makes us happy.

 

[nmonks]

I think this is actually quite an important point. If I decided to selectively treat animals close to me well, but ignore those at a distance, the ethics involved are surely questionable. This is rather like me saying I care a good deal about human rights in England. But I couldn't care less about the human rights of people in Africa or Asia or anywhere else because they're far away from me and the people look different anyhow.

Since we're all fishkeepers here, we all know that even "simple" animals like fish respond well to good care, but get stressed or sick when cared for badly. Many of us have seen even "stupid" animals like goldfish become tame, to the point where they recognise their owner. We've probably all seen unhappy fish in the wrong tanks, and happy fish in the right tanks and can tell the difference between the two. So surely, if we see this in our home aquaria with "primitive" animals, it is logical that the same things hold for "advanced" animals like chickens and cows.

Nowhere have I said we shouldn't eat meat. What I have said (and science says categorically) is that in the West we generally eat much more meat than we need to, and to some degree that is why we have an epidemic of obesity as well as lots of other problems including heart disease, gout, etc. On the other hand, most people in thw West eat far too little plant material. In terms of science there is zero argument over saying that most people in the West should cut down the amount of meat they eat while increase the amount of fruit, vegetables, and fish (particularly oily fish).

The fact we don't do this has nothing whatsoever to do with the cost of free-range or organic meat: even if we halved the amount of meat we ate, but bought organic meat, we'd still save money because the price differential isn't 100%. The problem is that we've been conditioned by advertisers and the food industry to believe that meat is the heart of every meal, and because most of us live in cities, we don't see meat as an animal but as something that comes wrapped in plastic. This has played on a basic psychological desire to eat meat for the same reasons we are programmed to crave fat, salt, and sugar: all these foods are rare in the wild, so when available, our instinct is to gorge on them. Fine in the wild where we'd come across meat once every couple of weeks, but bad in the modern world where we can eat meat at every meal. Similarly with sugar: in the wild, things like fruits would be season and so to be enjoyed to their fullest when available. In the modern world, candy bars play on the same sugar-craving, but obviously instead of being a short term thing they're available all the time.

Until we step back from our dinner plates and recognise how much is basic instinct and how much is advertising, we in the West often find it difficult to make objective decisions about what we stuff into our mouths. We've lost respect for food (look how much we waste) and most of us have lost the ability to cook from ingredients (see how much processed food is consumed). We expect things all year round (hence air-freighted strawberries in wintertime that taste of nothing) and most of us have no idea what real food tastes of because we buy what looks nice and because the advertisers tell us is good (witness the utterly tastless but pretty to look at Washington Red apple).

Cheers, Neale

Saying that I don't care about my aquariums.

I never said you didn't care about your aquariums, i asked/wondered you why you do when you didn't seem concerned about other animals (at least as far as eating them went).

 

[geo7x]

2)Lifestyles

If you guys are vegitarian, I have no problem with it. But I know a lot of vegitarians who think that everyone should be that way and that eating meat is BAD...and so on. Its more or less, the way people are, let them stay that way. Pushing lifestyles onto other people is wrong in my opinion. What do you think?

Why is this focused on vegetarians pushing other people to be vegetarian? I think there are more non-vegetarians that put pressure onto vegetarians, but i dont really have a problem with that. Vegetarians are a minority, there arent really enough vegetarians to "push" non vegetarians into becoming so, even if they did want to, which i dont think many do anyway. I may seem biased because im a vegetarian (pescotarian if you want to be precise ) but im just trying to address the other point of view other than the feeling that vegetarians are weirdos who are trying to stop everyone else eating meat, which really isnt the case.

I agree that people shouldnt push lifestyles onto others, but at the same time im not sure that this is much of a worry as i dont think there is much "pressurising" around. I dont really think that people would become vegetarian just because someone else said so anyway, I know there are websites etc around that put across that vegetarianism is the only right way, but why would people visit those sites anyway unless they agree with them in the first place?

on the other hand the thing i dont like about vegetarianism is that there is a definite line between vegetarianism and non-vegetarianism, and there is the impression that they are two seperate groups and there is no 'inbetween'.

As a pescovarian, it really pisses me off when vegetarians say "well youre not a PROPER vegetarian then" well so what? I enjoy eating fish and i think it provides alot of nutrients which i would miss out on anyway, why would i give up this so i can be labelled as a vegetarian? Apparently the fact that i eat fish occasionally makes me an 'outsider'. I really couldnt care less if im not a vegetarian, its what im happy with.

I think this is actually quite an important point. If I decided to selectively treat animals close to me well, but ignore those at a distance, the ethics involved are surely questionable.

obviously this is explaining how my pescovarianism is questionable, why do it treat fish different to meat? i cant really say for sure, and thus i dont think i will be eating fish for much longer, but somehow ive always though of fish as different to cows, pigs and sheep. Maybe its because of the thought of them being "simple" animals, maybe i think they get treated better than when cows or pigs are kept and slaughtered.
Either way im not some weirdo who eats fish all day every day, i often go for a couple of weeks without eating fish, i just feel it gives some occasional nutrients that i wouldnt get otherwise.

we all just have to find a balance between what we believe in and what makes us happy.

this pretty much explains why i am how i am, going by my personal beleifs, i should probably be a vegetarian, but i know that having the occasional fish meal gives me some good nutrients, but the biggest part is probably so it makes it easier for my family, i know my parents would be concerened about whether im gettin all the right nutrients if i was a completer vegetarian, and also i dont want my parents to have to constantly cater for my 'special needs' at meal times, so we can occasionally all have similar food. My parents havent directly pressurised me, i just know it makes it easier for them.

 

[Danno]

Never said it was a vegetarian pushing on another, niether even someone who eats meat to one who is a vegetarian.

Please understand, while I say things that I think, im also trying to instigate more indepth conversation.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

I think this is actually quite an important point. If I decided to selectively treat animals close to me well, but ignore those at a distance, the ethics involved are surely questionable. This is rather like me saying I care a good deal about human rights in England. But I couldn't care less about the human rights of people in Africa or Asia or anywhere else because they're far away from me and the people look different anyhow.

Since we're all fishkeepers here, we all know that even "simple" animals like fish respond well to good care, but get stressed or sick when cared for badly. Many of us have seen even "stupid" animals like goldfish become tame, to the point where they recognise their owner. We've probably all seen unhappy fish in the wrong tanks, and happy fish in the right tanks and can tell the difference between the two. So surely, if we see this in our home aquaria with "primitive" animals, it is logical that the same things hold for "advanced" animals like chickens and cows.

Yes that is what i believe. I think if you are going to be against animal cruelty, then you should be against animal cruelty to all animals in general as there is nothing that i can see that makes one animal more superior to another when it comes down to these things. I agree with the example its the same with things like human rights too- whats the point in saying you support with human rights when you only do so with some groups of people and not others?
Although it can be difficult at times to apply personal moral stances like being against animal cruelty to animals in general when so much of what we buy is made from animal products. Admittedly i own a long black pure sheep skin coat, i have no idea how well the sheep was looked after before it was killed, and probably never will do (on the other hand, i don't think its wrong to wear sheep skin coats- the sheep would have been killed anyway for its meat, might as well use as much of the animal as posible, including using its skin).

I'm definately all for not being wasteful though- our wasteful modern ways of today are something that do concern me a lot as well, so i try and do as much as i can for the environment by avoiding by wasteful of things whenever i can and by recycling as much stuff as i can. I especially think if you are going to kill an animal for food, you should pay respect to it by making use of as much of the animal as posible rather than just selecting the choicest cuts of meat and throwing away the rest when it could be used for things etc.

Keeping fish has also helped me learn more about what even some of the most basic animals can be capable of, we share a lot more in common with all sorts of animals than what a lot of us realise a lot of the time- fish are a lot more intelligent than what a lot of people give them credit for as well.
It still amazes me how a guppy fry only 3 weeks old can recognise me as the person who feeds it and comes up to the tank to great me for food- that fact that it can do this when it has a brain practically the size of a pin head is quite something. I don't think it is instinct as neither female nor male guppys look after their young, so the fry must have learnt that i take care of it by giving it food.

 

[Danno]

But in the way that society is now, it is impossible to care and treat with 100% perfect no flawed care for over 35 million cows. Yes you can care but is it even possible? Somethings are just not "in the possible happy zone". There is a hard reality and some things just aren't possible.