My 48g Fowlr Journey. 13 Months On...

[Miss Wiggle]

sent it

you don't mind me calling you that do you? think it's quite cute actually!

 

[sparklefuzz]

sent it

you don't mind me calling you that do you? think it's quite cute actually!

Thanks, got it... might be a struggle to have mine set up like that though, with my 'aquascape' as it is.. For now, I've pointed them both at the surface, and taken out the cover glasses... as I read they don't help either.

LOL call me fuzz if you like. I've been called far worse. LOL!

 

[Miss Wiggle]

sent it

you don't mind me calling you that do you? think it's quite cute actually!

Thanks, got it... might be a struggle to have mine set up like that though, with my 'aquascape' as it is.. For now, I've pointed them both at the surface, and taken out the cover glasses... as I read they don't help either.

LOL call me fuzz if you like. I've been called far worse. LOL!

fair enough, to me your tank *looks* a little light on LR, I'd put more in, even if just for the asthetics.... but I know the density can vary massivley from one piece to another so what *looks* light can actually have plenty enough for filtration purposes.

we have 2 set up behind the LR like in that diagram, then 1 on the side of the tank near the surface of the water giving us plenty of surface agitiation

lol, me too

 

[sparklefuzz]

sent it

you don't mind me calling you that do you? think it's quite cute actually!

Thanks, got it... might be a struggle to have mine set up like that though, with my 'aquascape' as it is.. For now, I've pointed them both at the surface, and taken out the cover glasses... as I read they don't help either.

LOL call me fuzz if you like. I've been called far worse. LOL!

fair enough, to me your tank *looks* a little light on LR, I'd put more in, even if just for the asthetics.... but I know the density can vary massivley from one piece to another so what *looks* light can actually have plenty enough for filtration purposes.

we have 2 set up behind the LR like in that diagram, then 1 on the side of the tank near the surface of the water giving us plenty of surface agitiation

lol, me too

Well, my tank is 48 US Gals... and I bought 48lbs, so it shouldn't be light on filtration. In terms of aesthetics, I like how it looks.... is there any reason why it should have more rock, for any purpose other than how it 'looks'? I've seen tanks with much more empty space... so I assumed I was ok, as long as I had the required amount for filtration...? If I've missed something, please tell me! LOL I just personally prefer it how it is... but if I need to add more I will

Tank as it is now... all clean up crew are in hiding, the little buggers.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

yeah 1lb per g is apparently the rule for filtration.

i don't think there's any other reason, was just giving my opinion for asthetcis.... and obviously you can never have too much filtration so being a bit heavy on LR isn't gonna hurt.

 

[sparklefuzz]

yeah 1lb per g is apparently the rule for filtration.

i don't think there's any other reason, was just giving my opinion for asthetcis.... and obviously you can never have too much filtration so being a bit heavy on LR isn't gonna hurt.

Yeah, course... I might buy some extra at the weekend when I go for the clowns.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

what sort of clowns you getting, we just got rid of ours, they were picking on mr grumpy the firefish so we decidede we wanted him more than them so they've gone... now he's all happy and has the tank to himself!

they have 2 absolutely stunning black clowns in our lfs, come with they're own anenome.... i want them soooooooo much, not allowed though i'm sulking over it!

 

[sparklefuzz]

what sort of clowns you getting, we just got rid of ours, they were picking on mr grumpy the firefish so we decidede we wanted him more than them so they've gone... now he's all happy and has the tank to himself!

they have 2 absolutely stunning black clowns in our lfs, come with they're own anenome.... i want them soooooooo much, not allowed though i'm sulking over it!

Haha, I would sulk too. They sound fabulous..! I have a soft sopt for the black clowns, we're having a black clown hopefully, and a true percula, or an ocellaris... depending on what we see. I know the true's are supposedly more aggresive so, we may opt for the ocellaris. I wanted a pair of both, but the tank is too small.

How is your firefish getting on on his own?

 

[Miss Wiggle]

he's a million times happier, shifted some corals round last night too and they're doing better now. hurrah all round!

we decided to rename the firefish, he's now called trinny (as in tranny and suzanna) cos he looks like he's got lippe on and is therefore a tranny..... tenuous link i know i think it really suits him.

now he's coming out some more i'm gonna try and get some pics of him.

 

[SkiFletch]

Professor Beaker huh? All kinds of new nicknames in this thread 8)

Well, Randy Holmes-Farley explains it in the homework, but I'll see if I cant shed some new light on things for you . Lets start with a few terms since I think thats where you're most hung-up.

Ion - An atom containing more or less than the normal number of electrons and thus a positive or negative charge. Ex: Sodium (Na+), Calcium (Ca++), Carbonate (CO3-), Magnesium (Mg+), Chloride (CL-)

Ionic Solid - A group of ions held together in a solid form by their positive and negative ionic attraction. Most ionic solids can dissolve when placed in water. Ex: Salt (Na+ CL-), Calcium Carbonate (Ca++ CO3(2)-).

Solute - An atom or molecule dissolved in solution of a liquid (commonly water). Solutes dissolve as individual ions and float free through-out the solution

Solubility - The ability of an Ionic Solid to dissolve into solution and become individual ions. Some ionic solids like salt (NaCL) have high solubility while others like Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3) have very low solubility.

Now that you know those terms we need to talk about the big one, Saturation. Water is made up of a finite amount of H2O molecules. When you start stuffing ionic solutes into it like those I mentioned and many more, it the H2O molecules have to be able to orient themselves around the solutes to essentially block or buffer its charge. Therefore, water has a maximum capacity to hold dissolved ions before it can no longer do so.

Sugar is a solute (albeit not ionic) that dissolves in water. If you start pouring sugar into water and stirring it, eventually it will no longer dissolve. At that point, the water is Saturated with sugar. Make sense?

Ok now the really tough part, explaining sea water. There is more than just salt in seawater as you know. There are ions such as Sodium, Chloride, Caclium, Carbonate, Bi-Carbonate, Stronium, Iodine, Magnesium, and many more all dissolved in sea water. When you add that many different ions into a solution, the solubility of individual ions changes. When you mix ions in solution near saturation, the solubility of each USUALLY goes down and thus they Precipitate (become ionic solids) out of solution.

So lets say I take a saturated solution of just water and salt. I then add to it a saturated solution of water and calcium carbonate. Because I am mixing more ions together the solubility of each goes down and ions will combine together to form salts again. You will notice in the container a thin white crusty film starting to develop as the salt and calcium carbonate becomes solid once again.

What does all that have to do with pH? Well, pH is a measure of free H+ ions in solution. In the presence of many negative charged ions (like carbonate), the pH will rise above neutral. If enough dissolved carbonate and bi-carbonate is present in solution, the pH will be at the desired level of 8.2. However if you add too much carbonate without the presence of enough other ions in the solution, you will reach the saturation point of the solid, go past it, and start binding together more solid calcium carbonate. The process is quick and can "crash" your carbonate levels and thus your pH (bad). It can happen so fast that it over-corrects and the solution becomes far less than saturated and the pH far lower than desired.

When you added your LR, you have inadvertantly disturbed the ionic balance in your water and caused precipitation of calcium carbonate. Unfortunately, calcium carbonate has a low solubility in sea water and it takes a LONG time for levels to re-bound naturally. So long that calcifying organisms in the aquarium usually use it before it becomes available. So therefore the only way to bring things back up is to SLOWLY dose calcium, carbonate, and magnesium (since these are the big 3). If you dose too fast you can locally super-saturate your solution and either make things worse, or make them not better at all. Thats why in Randy's additive article, he advises dosing small amounts of his concentrated solutions (on the order of ounces).

There is lots more in Randy's articles, especially regarding pH which you should read, but I hope that helped

 

[sparklefuzz]

Professor Beaker huh? All kinds of new nicknames in this thread 8)

Well, Randy Holmes-Farley explains it in the homework, but I'll see if I cant shed some new light on things for you . Lets start with a few terms since I think thats where you're most hung-up.

Ion - An atom containing more or less than the normal number of electrons and thus a positive or negative charge. Ex: Sodium (Na+), Calcium (Ca++), Carbonate (CO3-), Magnesium (Mg+), Chloride (CL-)

Ionic Solid - A group of ions held together in a solid form by their positive and negative ionic attraction. Most ionic solids can dissolve when placed in water. Ex: Salt (Na+ CL-), Calcium Carbonate (Ca++ CO3(2)-).

Solute - An atom or molecule dissolved in solution of a liquid (commonly water). Solutes dissolve as individual ions and float free through-out the solution

Solubility - The ability of an Ionic Solid to dissolve into solution and become individual ions. Some ionic solids like salt (NaCL) have high solubility while others like Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3) have very low solubility.

Now that you know those terms we need to talk about the big one, Saturation. Water is made up of a finite amount of H2O molecules. When you start stuffing ionic solutes into it like those I mentioned and many more, it the H2O molecules have to be able to orient themselves around the solutes to essentially block or buffer its charge. Therefore, water has a maximum capacity to hold dissolved ions before it can no longer do so.

Sugar is a solute (albeit not ionic) that dissolves in water. If you start pouring sugar into water and stirring it, eventually it will no longer dissolve. At that point, the water is Saturated with sugar. Make sense?

Ok now the really tough part, explaining sea water. There is more than just salt in seawater as you know. There are ions such as Sodium, Chloride, Caclium, Carbonate, Bi-Carbonate, Stronium, Iodine, Magnesium, and many more all dissolved in sea water. When you add that many different ions into a solution, the solubility of individual ions changes. When you mix ions in solution near saturation, the solubility of each USUALLY goes down and thus they Precipitate (become ionic solids) out of solution.

So lets say I take a saturated solution of just water and salt. I then add to it a saturated solution of water and calcium carbonate. Because I am mixing more ions together the solubility of each goes down and ions will combine together to form salts again. You will notice in the container a thin white crusty film starting to develop as the salt and calcium carbonate becomes solid once again.

What does all that have to do with pH? Well, pH is a measure of free H+ ions in solution. In the presence of many negative charged ions (like carbonate), the pH will rise above neutral. If enough dissolved carbonate and bi-carbonate is present in solution, the pH will be at the desired level of 8.2. However if you add too much carbonate without the presence of enough other ions in the solution, you will reach the saturation point of the solid, go past it, and start binding together more solid calcium carbonate. The process is quick and can "crash" your carbonate levels and thus your pH (bad). It can happen so fast that it over-corrects and the solution becomes far less than saturated and the pH far lower than desired.

When you added your LR, you have inadvertantly disturbed the ionic balance in your water and caused precipitation of calcium carbonate. Unfortunately, calcium carbonate has a low solubility in sea water and it takes a LONG time for levels to re-bound naturally. So long that calcifying organisms in the aquarium usually use it before it becomes available. So therefore the only way to bring things back up is to SLOWLY dose calcium, carbonate, and magnesium (since these are the big 3). If you dose too fast you can locally super-saturate your solution and either make things worse, or make them not better at all. Thats why in Randy's additive article, he advises dosing small amounts of his concentrated solutions (on the order of ounces).

There is lots more in Randy's articles, especially regarding pH which you should read, but I hope that helped

OK...I think I get that, well, a bit anyway! My hubby went into the LFS yesterday and was told the only way to control the PH was to dose a buffer and then add buffer to the water every water change... he said RO takes too much stuff out and this is the result? My question is, would there be any harm in adding PH buffer as he suggests, or would dosing calcium, carbonate and magnesium be better? Also, if I dose all 3 and bring the PH back up, will I need to continually dose to maintain the PH or is it 'fixed'. If I need to continually dose, wouldn't it be easier, and cheaper to just use PH buffer?

 

[Matthew5664]

The 3 part additive you refer to my have a small effect on the pH but not a lot unless you’re dosing a lot. The ‘buffer’ in this additive is the Alk buffer. pH should be to some degree self maintained. Sorry for not reading the rest of the post but what substrate have you got? If the pH drops below 7 it will dissolve the LR and substrate (coral sand being harder than aragonite) this in turn will bring the pH up. The salt you use in your water changes (if done enough) should bring the pH back into balance. Don’t dose the water with buffer or the WC water because once you go down that road these no telling where you’ll end up (water chemisty wise) When setting up a tank for the fist time there will be fluctuations in water chemisty but these will settle out. Just keep doing the WC’s and should all be fine.

 

[sparklefuzz]

The 3 part additive you refer to my have a small effect on the pH but not a lot unless you’re dosing a lot. The ‘buffer’ in this additive is the Alk buffer. pH should be to some degree self maintained. Sorry for not reading the rest of the post but what substrate have you got? If the pH drops below 7 it will dissolve the LR and substrate (coral sand being harder than aragonite) this in turn will bring the pH up. The salt you use in your water changes (if done enough) should bring the pH back into balance. Don’t dose the water with buffer or the WC water because once you go down that road these no telling where you’ll end up (water chemisty wise) When setting up a tank for the fist time there will be fluctuations in water chemisty but these will settle out. Just keep doing the WC’s and should all be fine.

Thanks, that makes sense.. I have aragonite sand. How often should I be doing water changes? I'd planned on weekly... but one was done wednesday as I was acclimating the clean up crew, and we hope to buy fish tomorrow, so another small water change... is this ok?

The PH has risen to 8.0 this morning, even after all night without lighting, so I'll test it tonight just before the lights go off and see where we are. I really think it was the lack of oxygen entering the tank... well, seems so anyways.

 

[Matthew5664]

"we hope to buy fish tomorrow, so another small water change... is this ok?"

You got it WC's are a good thing just befor new livestock is added to the tank.

I change 20% every 2 weeks but you could do 10% every week of 25-30% every month. just depends on the buildup on nitrates in you system.

Do you run with carbon or phosphate remover?

 

[sparklefuzz]

"we hope to buy fish tomorrow, so another small water change... is this ok?"

You got it WC's are a good thing just befor new livestock is added to the tank.

I change 20% every 2 weeks but you could do 10% every week of 25-30% every month. just depends on the buildup on nitrates in you system.

Do you run with carbon or phosphate remover?

Not at the moment, but I will have phosphate remover running by tomorrow. So, to clarify... I drip acclimate the fish for 2-3 hours, then before putting them into the tank, I top the tank back up with saltwater, so essentially doing a 3g water change? Thats what I did with the clean up crew the other day.

I am planning to change 4g a week for the first few months, then I'll probably change to fortnightly 8g changes.