Europe

If the Commons do debate the issue of a second referendum and then, heaven forbid, vote to ignore the result of the first refendum then I guarantee that in the second one the Remain camp will definitely win, overwhelmingly, not because there has necessarily been a change of mind in 'Brexit-regretters' but because people like me will just not bother to vote. I wouldn't see the point as another small majority for Leave would just result in another attempt to overturn a Brexit vote; this will continue until the Remain camp finally gets the result it wants. This happened in Ireland and the same may happen here.
 
Not only will I not vote in a second referendum, I will not register to vote and will not vote in any election in this country ever again. I have voted and I have voted for Brexit, if Parliament overturn my vote then what's the point, where is the democracy?
 
Indeed.
 
I would be inclined to do the same, not bother voting at the next referendum IF this stupid petition actually miracously passes in the Commons.
 
 
What a farce......
 
I honestly think that because the majority was so small, and there's growing evidence that some voters were misled, and a significant percentage regret voting the way they did, there are legitimate causes of concern over the result.
 
If people were misled then surely they have only themselves to blame. The campaign lasted four months, the amount of information that was available in newspapers, leaflets and on the internet was huge. If people just sat back and voted for the person who put their points of view without checking for themselves the veracity of those points then I say more fool them. Brexit was always going to be a gamble with our futures as the world has changed since we were outside the EEC in the seventies and it would be dishonest to say for sure what would happen because no one can know. What IS known is what it is like IN the EU and you either voted for the same old bureacracy with ever closer union -- an EU army, currency, and government by unelected commissioners -- or you voted for a change, whatever that will bring.
 
I posted this on Facebook yesterday, I stand by it now:
 
Whatever the future brings, I am proud to be British: I think we have shown we still have balls.
Something has been beaten out of us over the years in the EU and now we have found a hidden depth of courage.
We have stood alone before and we will stand alone now but as a lion, not the [cash] cow we have been for the last decades.
Well done Britain.
 
I believe the rules say that is a petition get's over 100,000 signatures then it has to be debated in parliament but I also believe the government would be stupid to allow a second referendum. It would cause national discord among voters and right now, they want us on their side
 
ShinySideUp said:
I posted this on Facebook yesterday, I stand by it now:
 
Whatever the future brings, I am proud to be British: I think we have shown we still have balls.
Something has been beaten out of us over the years in the EU and now we have found a hidden depth of courage.
We have stood alone before and we will stand alone now but as a lion, not the [cash] cow we have been for the last decades.
Well done Britain.
I could not dig; I dared not rob:
Therefore I lied to please the mob.
Now all my lies are proved untrue
And I must face the men I slew.
What tale shall serve me here among
Mine angry and defrauded young?


Rudyard Kipling
 
Harsh.
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I expect many of the young feel this way, but I am not young and have lived outside the EU.
 
Indeed, does seem a little on the harsh side but honestly, if the shoe was on the other foot, would the older generation be as negative and trying all sorts of underhand tactics to try and get their way?
 
Would they feel hard done by?
 
Would they be as angry?
 
Would they be as in denial of the results?
 
 
In all honesty, I really, really do not think so, would certainly feel disapointed sure, but do think they would accept it as no choice in the matter and see what happens next.
 
Though having said that, no idea what doddering Farage and blundering Boris would say if they had lost their campaign :/
 
 
I am not particularly young, in my 40's with children of my own, am a homeowner, work ful time, am not in the younger generation camp nor am I in the older generation group and I was actually expecting Remain to win the referendum but would have accepted this as really was 50 / 50 on my decision in the days before the vote.
 
But having won the Leave vote, i want to see the UK follow through with this and improve the UK as a whole in the years to come.
 
I am just totally and utterly fed up of the remain camp trying to undermine the vote results and trying bullying tactics to get the vote overturned or pushing to get the government to do a re-vote or suchlike.
 
The referendum result is not binding. It's advisory. Article 50 has not been evoked.

I think that the situation and potential consequences are such that further debate might be necessary, that's all.
 
if the vote isn't binding then why the hell did we have one in the first place? It's rediculous.
 
I'm like Ch4rlie, I'm in my mid 40's ... I was just a one year old baby when we entered into 'the common market'. I've never known any different than the status quo but I would like to know if things could be different ... if Britain could become Great Britain again. I also believe in democracy very strongly. It's what my Grandad fought for in the 1st world war. He risked his life so that his future children and grandchildren could have a better life not a life ruled by another country. I can't help wondering what he would think if he were alive today ... watching his country fall apart being ruled from abroad. 
 
I'm also fed up of the remain camp trying to undermine things, I'm also fed up of the media whipping up hatred with their stories of armageddon 
 
In the Discworld there are 5 horsemen of the Apocolypse ... and the 5th (Ronnie soaK who left before they became famous) one is riding out all on his own right now .... 
 
Just a thought, not wanting to offend anyone, but be careful with the "d" word.

In the tactics of the remain side you are seeing democracy at work. For it is just a polite way to say mob rule. If we don't get our way, keep pushing using threats of and outright violence, until they get their way. And woe to those who disagree.

As an outsider, the main argument I have seen for leaving is a lack of sovereignty. And in such a union, bearing in mind democracy, Britain has one vote. Hard for a majority. Nevermind the massive army of unelected bureaucrats, who cannot be sacked. Those spring up in any and all governments.

As for the immigration issue. Immigrants are a wonderful thing, so long as they assimilate to become fellow countrymen. Not as is happening throughout the Western world, immigrating to create your home country in the new one.

As for trade, well there is no more such a thing as free trade than there is a free lunch. Somebody always pays. And not always in ways expected.

Having said this, again I hope no one is offended.
 
I live in Canada so I am somewhat removed from this, but we are part of the British Commonwealth and the Queen is our head of state and I have British ancestry (my father's large family) so I take an interest.  Personally, I believe the UK has made a terrible error of judgement (if leaving the UK goes forward) and for the very wrong reasons.  
 
I don't know the precise rules under which your referendum was established, but here in British Columbia we have had two referenda in the past decade and neither was necessarily binding on the government and we knew that before voting.  In our parliamentary democracy we elect members of parliament to make these sort of decisions for us.  If we lose faith in parliament, we have elections to hopefully deal with that.  As I understand things, PM Cameron agreed to holding a referendum to bring together two factions in the Conservative Party.  If true, that was a big mistake.  But politicians want to be in power, and too often will do anything to maintain power.  I suspect that in hindsight the PM deeply regrets the action he took, since he clearly never imagined this would actually come about.  Emotions, not reason, got stirred up, and as often happens in referenda, people use them to "slap" the government; this is exactly what happened in both our referenda in BC.  In your referendum, there is too much at stake for this sort of behaviour.
 
A referendum is a tool to assess the opinion of the public.  The statistics I have seen tell us that just over 70% of those eligible to vote took the time to do so.  That is sad in itself, that a quarter of the citizens don't care--and if they did care, they would have voted, period, so clearly they do not care.  The remaining three-quarters are split down the middle.  Common sense tells me that no government should consider this result binding when the issue is so critical.  That intelligence may or may not prevail, time will tell.
 
Here in Canada, in the Province of Quebec, there have been two referenda on the issue of sovereignty, meaning if Quebec should separate from Canada.  Both lost, very narrowly.  But if the separation side had won, you can be certain it would have taken a larger majority.  The governments of the day said as much after the fact.
 
The problem is, that personal feelings get stirred up, and cool heads do not prevail.  Just look at what is possibly going to happen to the UK if everyone ends up accepting this decision.  Scotland will likely separate from England.  Northern Ireland will likely unite with the Republic of Ireland.  Spain has already asked Gibralter to join it.  These are not insignificant issues.  Then there is the economic side, which is bound to be detrimental for England, and so involved I cannot possibly even fathom it.
 
Someone mentioned lives lost in the great wars to preserve democracy and freedom...that is precisely what the EU is all about, preventing something like that happening again.  It has a much greater chance of success when nations work together, not going their own hard-headed way just to maintain so-called "independence."  Independence from what, exactly?
 
US Rebublican candidate (to be, likely) Donald Trump was happy with the result.  Why wouldn't he be?  He is a racist, a bigot, self-centred, arrogant--God help the world if he should get elected to the position that has the power to start a nuclear holocaust with the push of a button.  But his underlying policies mirror Brexit quite disturbingly so.  The jubilation from the Brexit side that I saw in the news reports was very scary; the rhetoric from the leaders even more-so.  It reminded me of the rise of Hitler and the Nazis in the 1930's.  And before you jump down my throat, understand what I am really saying here: there is a very obvious similarity in how these ends were achieved.  Mr. Trump is using the same tactics.  So did Stephen Harper, our Canadian PM that held power for a decade until we finally got rid of him.  The methods work, but the results can be risky at best, and catastrophic at worst.
 
Be careful what you wish for.
 
Byron.
 
That's a very eloquently written post, Byron, thank you for sharing your thoughts.
 
the problem I have is people telling me why I voted to leave. Every time I turn on the news there's news readers, political 'experts', politicians, the general public, every man and his dog saying that those that voted to leave voted that way because of immigration fears ... or because they are racist.
 
I resent the implication that some one who's never met me, and is never likely to, know's somehow what was on my mind when I voted to leave. Do not tell me what I'm thinking and feeling ... only I know that. No one else can. If I am thinking like this I can pretty much guarantee that I'm not alone. 
 
The fact remains that as part of the EU, we, as British people can not vote for them to go. No one voted for Junker to be head of the EU - no one from real life anyway. He's a horrible, small minded little man who called the people of this country deserters and publicly stated that we would pay the price for having the audacity to bring about this referendum. That alone scared the pants off me ... and off the people I know in my social circle. It sounded very much like blackmail. Remain part of the EU - or else .... just more eloquently put.
 
The EU that we entered into all those years ago was about friendship ... about ending the wars and was for the common good. It was about trade and looking out for each other but over recent years is has descended into project control via rediculous laws on a one size fits all 28 countries ... lets not forget how they interfered in our hobby and stopped us from buying apple snails ... how much further were they willing to go in interfering in people lives and hobbies ... well there's a whole thread somewhere on this very forum discussing that. That interference was very much on my mind last week. 
 
And seen as Hilter has been brought into this ... well everytime I see Junker and his best pal Merkel presiding over the EU that's exactly what I see. We won the war only to allow them to sneak in by the back door and rule us in a more polite way.
 
 
On a side note - it's just been on the telly about the referendum. Many points were covered but Scotland can not have another referendum without parliament agreeing to it and at this time they are unlikely to do that. The Labor party are falling apart with 10 members leaving today which is not a good sign for politics. It's been agreed that parliament can not ignore the will of the people ... the laywers would be all over it if they tried .... not to mention potential riots 
 
Oh and the petition? more that 80.000 signatures have been found to be fraudulent. It doesn't bode well.
 

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