Europe

[Ch4rlie]

For you Akasha
 
xenophobic |zɛnəˈfəʊbɪk|
adjective
having or showing a dislike of or prejudice against people from other countries: xenophobic attitudes.
 
 
Example - The term xenophobia refers to the fear of that which is different, foreign, or strange. Xenophobia is an irrational and unreasoned fear. The origin of the word comes from the Greek for “fear,” “phobos” and the Greek for “stranger,” “xenos.”

 

[fluttermoth]

 

 

I would agree with you Fluttermoth. Both sides lied but only the leave voters were branded racists. Anyone who know's me know's I am not racist ... never have been never will be. I consider myself a tollerant person. I believe every human on the planet has the right to an opinion ... and I have a right to either agree or disagree ... it's what makes our crazy world turn around.

Akasha; We've always got on well and I would never, ever, even for a moment, consider you a racist.
 
 
 

 
Sorry, I wasn't suggesting that you were, sorry if you mis-understood my point. That wasn't what I was trying to say. I was trying to say that many Remain voters, if the media are to be believed, are calling those that voted 'Leave' racist and zenophobic (hell, I don't even know what that means!! I'd have to get the dictionary out and look it up!) 
 
Just wanted to make that point cos I'm well aware that that is how wars are started lol 

 


 
No, I didn't think that you were suggesting that I thought that!  I just have an irrational need to apologise to anyone who who's been attacked or denigrated during this appalling affair, it's all become so nasty and petty and personal and it needs to stop

 

[Akasha72]

thank you Ch4rlie ... I had a rough idea what it meant (I was being sarcastic in my op) but not the actual dictionary definition lol 

 
It does actually make me wonder though whether the people trumping out these jibes actually know the true meaning or whether they've just heard it on the news/read it in the paper/social media and think it sounds good so they'll label someone with it anyway 

I agree Fluttermoth ... I mean look at us here. We have 5 pages now of adult healthy debate and no one has felt the need to to accuse anyone of anything. We've just put our feelings across and whether we all or agree or not not one person has felt the need to say "your wrong, your idea is stupid, your racist etc"
 
If only the rest of the wider public could do the same it would be a much better world

 

[Ch4rlie]

Well, thats the thing right there, on this forum, we kind of know each other here and have a respect for folks.
 
It's when strangers who do not know another, its much easier to be negative and evoke retaliation out of anger to a stranger than it is to people they know well.
 
A sad fact.
 
Think this is why so many leave voter have kept quiet, out of fear of ostracism.

 

[fluttermoth]

Well, thats the thing right there, on this forum, we kind of know each other here and have a respect for folks.
 
It's when strangers who do not know another, its much easier to be negative and evoke retaliation out of anger to a stranger than it is to people they know well.
 
A sad fact.
 
Think this is why so many leave voter have kept quiet, out of fear of ostracism.

 
Weirdly, I'm having opposite experience
 
The forum I mentioned in an earlier post; like I've said, I've been there daily for a decade, and I'm too scared to post, as remainer, because of the hate a couple of people who are posting on the remain side are getting. It's been really spiteful, from people that I thought  were too good for this sort of thing. The viciousness of it has really upset me

 

[Byron]

@Byron, Chancellor Merkel cannot invoke article 50 because only the member state that decides to leave can invoke it.

 
 
I fully understand this.  The analysis was not mine, but even so the author was not suggesting this either.  Some members of the EU apparently want the UK to leave ASAP (there are clearly political issues behind this, we needn't get bogged down in those), but Chancellor Merkel's position is that only the UK can trigger Article 50, and political analysts see this as clever reasoning on her part to allow the UK time to fully consider the implications and (hopefully in her view and many others) pull back and remain, however they may do this.  There are several methods if they decide accordingly, this is by no means a done deal unless the UK government makes it so, and they still have the authority and option of remaining in the UK.
 
In hindsight, PM Cameron may have been better to have not resigned, and if some political stability could be established (which is always possible if the players show true leadership and maturity) taken this forward and found the means to set aside the outcome of the referendum.  As the analysis I cited, and other comments in this thread, plainly show, this is not legally binding and there may be several avenues opening to circumvent it.  The likely issue in Ireland should be something no one wants to see, and it would indeed be catastrophic for the UK to disintegrate over what was a mistake in the first place.
 
 

Merkel, Hollande and Renzi have disappointed, but not surprised me by refusing to talk about any terms for leaving before the UK does invoke article 50.
 

 
In my view, it would be unfortunate for any members of the EU to start spouting off terms and conditions, until the UK has officially made the request.  And that is not likely, or certainly should not be undertaken, until there is a much clearer understanding of the implications for such an action.  It is obvious that no one in the UK has thought through the implications, or they would not find themselves in the position to begin with.
 

The problem is that fundamentally the EU is the United States of Europe by the back door and is about the slow but steady progress towards the final creation of a super-state.  That is why it has a flag, an anthem, a single currency and 3 presidents.  That is also why it wants to create its own army.
 

 
I would respectfully suggest that this may be an over-reaction.  I admit I am not well versed in the machinations of European politics, but given the immense benefit of a force like the EU in global affairs, in this age of globalization which no one can disavow, I see this very differently.
 
Byron.

 

[Akasha72]

Byron ... the EU were well on their way to creating The United States of Europe. There is already talk of a European army and as Mr Cameron had given away our veto (very quietly I may say) there was a good chance we would have been forced to adopt their failing currency had we voted to remain. Any new countries applying to join the EU now have to accept their failing currency. The EU laws over rule all counties laws, ours included and every product we make in Britain has to conform to EU legistation .... if that isn't the first signs of the beginnings of a super-state then I don't know what is.
 
Jean-Claude Junker, the top man at the EU is a controlling, foul tempered, foul mouthed idiot of a man. A do as I say, not as I do kind of person. Just today he told one of our MEP's he had no right to be at the meeting of the EU as Britain had voted to leave ... well, we havn't left yet and our MEP's have every right to be there whether MR Junker likes it or not.
 
So you can respectfully suggest we are over-reacting but with some of the language that comes out of the mouths of people such as Junker I can respectfully tell you you are wrong

 

[Baccus]

On lighter side not everytime I see the word xenophob I am reminded that in Australia we actually have a parliamentary Minister called Nick Xenophon. It almost always makes me have a little chuckle to myself with his name, wondering how often news readers and paper writers make typos and Fruedian slips calling him Nick Xenophobia.
 
xenophobic |zɛnəˈfəʊbɪk|
adjective
having or showing a dislike of or prejudice against people from other countries: xenophobic attitudes.
 
Example - The term xenophobia refers to the fear of that which is different, foreign, or strange. Xenophobia is an irrational and unreasoned fear. The origin of the word comes from the Greek for “fear,” “phobos” and the Greek for “stranger,” “xenos.”

 

[fluttermoth]

Byron ... the EU were well on their way to creating The United States of Europe. There is already talk of a European army and as Mr Cameron had given away our veto (very quietly I may say) there was a good chance we would have been forced to adopt their failing currency had we voted to remain. Any new countries applying to join the EU now have to accept their failing currency. The EU laws over rule all counties laws, ours included and every product we make in Britain has to conform to EU legistation .... if that isn't the first signs of the beginnings of a super-state then I don't know what is.

Well, that's your opinion, Akasha. It's fine and you're perfectly entitled to have it, but I disagree. I don't see it the same way you do. You can't say either Byron or myself are objectively wrong because we don't share your viewpoint.
 

Jean-Claude Junker, the top man at the EU is a controlling, foul tempered, foul mouthed idiot of a man. A do as I say, not as I do kind of person. Just today he told one of our MEP's he had no right to be at the meeting of the EU as Britain had voted to leave ... well, we havn't left yet and our MEP's have every right to be there whether MR Junker likes it or not.

I do agree Junker is a deeply unpleasant man, but I personally think, if you don't like the way things are being done, you try and sort them out, you don't pick up your ball and go home. I also think there are more important issues at stake than swearing, tbh, but that's just my personal opinion on it.
 

So you can respectfully suggest we are over-reacting but with some of the language that comes out of the mouths of people such as Junker I can respectfully tell you you are wrong

Again, that's your opinion, valid, and one you're perfectly entitled, both to hold and express, but it's not objectively right or wrong.

 

[Akasha72]

my apologies ... you are indeed correct Fluttermoth. It is just my opinion

 

[fluttermoth]

That's all right; I know you're very passionatre in your views (so am I, but I've been politically active, although in a a very small way, for a number of years, so I've learnt to moderate my own speech very, very rigidly!)

 

[ShinySideUp]

I was a bit annoyed to find that Cameron was going to resign and I feel rather let down by hiim as we are left in a void until someone takes over. With no leader, no effective opposition and all the hounds of the EU baying for our instant departure it is hardly surprising that the Pound has taken a hammering and shares have dropped. However, I believe that given time things will return to some semblace of normality within a few months as people become accustomed to the change in circumstances.
 
Above there was talk of vitriolic comments and I have been subject to some untoward language by a 'friend' of mine who accused a like-minded friend and I of being racist because we voted for Leave, fortunately we were both mature enough to have let it go, this time.
 
I am not racist and was distinctly concerned to see that Polish family on the TV yesterday who had received a vile racist note as if leaving the EU had given every bigoted arse the right to abuse everyone who either voted Remain or was not obviously English, I hope they are a minority.

 

[Ch4rlie]

I was a bit annoyed to find that Cameron was going to resign and I feel rather let down by hiim as we are left in a void until someone takes over. With no leader, no effective opposition and all the hounds of the EU baying for our instant departure it is hardly surprising that the Pound has taken a hammering and shares have dropped. However, I believe that given time things will return to some semblace of normality within a few months as people become accustomed to the change in circumstances.
 
Above there was talk of vitriolic comments and I have been subject to some untoward language by a 'friend' of mine who accused a like-minded friend and I of being racist because we voted for Leave, fortunately we were both mature enough to have let it go, this time.
 
I am not racist and was distinctly concerned to see that Polish family on the TV yesterday who had received a vile racist note as if leaving the EU had given every bigoted arse the right to abuse everyone who either voted Remain or was not obviously English, I hope they are a minority.

 
I do agree with this about Cameron, i always thought his timing of the resignation was kind of off but whats done is done, and we just have to be patient and ride out the storm.
 
I too, have recieved some 'comments' from so called friends, mostly on FaceBook, but I have so far refused to get embroiled in this. Completely pointless imho.
 
As for the Polish community, they are indeed getting a bit of a hammering and seems they currently are the target of most of this 'racist' abuse unfortunately. I have a couple of Polish friends and I truly feel for them at this time.

 

[fluttermoth]

I was a bit annoyed to find that Cameron was going to resign and I feel rather let down by hiim as we are left in a void until someone takes over. With no leader, no effective opposition and all the hounds of the EU baying for our instant departure it is hardly surprising that the Pound has taken a hammering and shares have dropped. However, I believe that given time things will return to some semblace of normality within a few months as people become accustomed to the change in circumstances.

Yes, it was appalling of Cameron to resign immediately; I suppose he felt he to, having been on the losing side. Johnson and Gove also behaved appalling by disappearing over the weekend, and watching the Labour party rip itself apart in public over the last few days, just when the country needs a strong rallying point for an anti- austerity, pro-remain mandate, has been deeply unpleasant.
 

Above there was talk of vitriolic comments and I have been subject to some untoward language by a 'friend' of mine who accused a like-minded friend and I of being racist because we voted for Leave, fortunately we were both mature enough to have let it go, this time.

As I might have mentioned, one of my sons and my mum both voted leave; we've had some quite 'robust' discussions, but we're all reasonable, so we haven't fallen out, thank goodness. Other people online (I'm agoraphobic and don't go out much, so I don't have to deal with actual people

), meh, not so nice!
 

I am not racist and was distinctly concerned to see that Polish family on the TV yesterday who had received a vile racist note as if leaving the EU had given every bigoted arse the right to abuse everyone who either voted Remain or was not obviously English, I hope they are a minority.

Yes, anecdotally across social media, there does seem to have been a very nasty upturn in open racial abuse. The unpleasant, shouty minority seem to feel they've been legitimised and enabled (the right wing gutter press has to bear some responsibility for this, IMO, peddling half truths, out and out lies and whipping people up into a frenzy), and, as usual, get everyone tarred with the same brush, it's very unfair and happens on both sides, sadly. I'm very ashamed of some of the behaviour I've seen and heard from our fellow human beings.

 

[Akasha72]

Here in Harrogate we have a LOT of Polish people. My next door neighbours are Polish and they are lovely people. They work hard and just want a quiet life. If they are struggling with their English they often ask me 'how I say it?' and I try to help them. I try to speak to them normally as I feel it is in their interest to learn our language.
What I do hate though is when I'm in a certain supermarket where they all shop and they are stood around in large groups talking in Polish ... I find it intimidating. I guess that's just me.
 
But my Dad made me stop and think on Friday ... he said "it's the Poles I feel for. I know there are too many here but at the end of the day they fought with us in the war and for that we own them some respect"
 
I didn't know that. Perhaps next time you hear someone on social media bashing the Polish perhaps you should pass on my Dad's message. It might shut a few people up