Europe

[DoubleDutch]

Sorry Byron, I am admiring you for your knowledge and we're still thanking Canadians (and the other allies) for helping us during and after WW2, but do you really think it is fair for a Canadian to "judge" us Europeans about something like this?

The British are the first to stand up against Bruxelles' arrogance. As a Dutchman I only can make a deep bow for that. Is it a coincidence there are now talks (a day after the Brexit) about giving the countries some of their former power back?

Wouldn't you feel the same when Donald Trump was telling Canadians what to do, pay, how to act etc etc......

The argument it is preventing war aso..... was given us years ago. It's almost telling us only Europeans would ever start a war : think the situation in the world proofs a bit different. Are there thousands and thousands of refugees / migrants entering Canada or trying to cross the borders in all kind of ways?

A Union or Community is okay (and didn't we already have one for years?) but only if / when "Bruxelles" is back at the place where it belongs.

I leave the "upcome of Hitler" remark for what it is. BTW : wasn't he also telling the whole of Europe what to do, how to act, etcetera ??

Don't judge "us" from there, where not judging "you guys" over there. Isn't that what is all about in life and isn't that what would prevent conflicts/wars etcetera.

Kind regards, Aad

 

[Byron]

I am not judging anyone, nor am I defending the way the EU governs itself or operates.  You missed my point.  I believe the complex issues need cooler heads than those of the general populace.  This is why we elect a government.  There is also the fact that the EU may have made structural changes without this step.  I heard that Germany had made such offers.  When there is so much at stake, it is better to calmly work through perceived issues.  Packing up your toys and going home is not the best way.  And from the news reports I have seen (on the BBC world service) I get the distinct impression that many [I said many, not all] of the "leave" voters were acting from the wrong motives for something as crucial as this issue.

 

[Ch4rlie]

This is true, anyone who keeps their cool and emotions from their thinking of polictics will be best placed to know which chice, leave or remain, makes most sense on paper.
 
But alas, this is the general population of the United Kingdom, and there will always be opposing views and emotions into the mix simply because some folks may not like some particular policitans , parties, or feels left out or perhaps simply voting out of ignorance.
 
But 17 miilion folks who voted on each side of the referendum cannot all be wrong.
 
Its a real shame that things have come to this sort of situation when folks simply cannot or refuse to accept votes and having to sully whoever won by playground antics of name calling, bullying and simply being outright sarcastic and son on so forth.
 
There are many pros and cons to BOTH sides of the referendum, lies and scarmongering, inaccurate 'facts' which certainly did not help, this all goes towards why the such close margin in the voting results.
 
Jeremy Corbyn, whether you like him or not does come up with some good insights at times, this is one such example -
 
"One clear message from last Thursday's vote is that millions of people feel shut out of a political and economic system that has let them down and scarred our country with grotesque levels of inequality."
 
Thats a pretty good reason why many folks have voted for leave.
 
Its never as simple or as clear cut as some folks is trying to make this out to be, this especially includes the media.

 

[Akasha72]

Do Not believe anything you see or hear in the media Byron. The media are currently in the process of whipping up fear and panic through jumping to conclusions about the reason why 'leave' voters voted the way they did .... according to their belief it's about immigration fears ... not all 'Leave' voters voted that way because of immigration and it's wholey wrong of the media to make out that they did.
 
I've tried to make this point more than once now ... do not pretend to know what was going through any of the individual voters minds when they cast their vote - whether it was to leave or remain. No one can know what was going through another persons mind unless they have chosen to speak of it. 
 
I would agree that this needs a cool head .... in fact that is exactly what they are calling for now. The experts are calling for a keep calm and carry on attitude and I can't agree more.
 
Nothing is happening yet, quite why the media are trying to whip up a storm over nothing is beyond me. 
 
David Cameron could stop this right now. He could publicly state that there will be No 2nd referendum. That would stop the remainers from behaving the way they are. He could then grow a pair and enact Article 50 and start the ball rolling instead of stalling. Right now, what this country needs is for people the calm down and the government to follow through on what they promised us. We got the referendum, they asked us a question, we answered that question, now get on with it and show the people of this country some strong leadership and unite us instead of sitting back, stalling and watching us tear each other apart.

 

[Byron]

Ch4rlie, you may not have intended it, but your post #108 is exactly supporting what I said initially and why a referendum is such a bad process for something so involved and significant to not only the UK but the global people.  I made the same point about the two BC referenda...people will use this opportunity to show the government/politicians/economists (whatever) that they (the people) are fed up with them or the system.  But this is totally the wrong motivation.  You don't cut off your nose to spite your face, and that is precisely what Mr. Corbyn is advocating in your citation and what i saw from other leaders, and this was in clips of their speaking, not something made up by the media.
 
Akasha, I am not sure the views expressed in your last paragraph (in post #109) is altogether the wisest.  First, the PM is in my view correct to step aside rather than be the one initiating this process.  I heard the speech made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer this morning (I watched it live at 11:20 pm my time last evening on BBC) and he is absolutely right in saying that there has to be a thought-out plan before any of this is triggered, and a new PM will presumably be better equiped to do this--at least in perception if not reality [my addition in italics].  Otherwise you are just jumping into the abyss, and that can indeed be trouble way beyond anything so far.  That is another problem with the referendum...again, emotions were played up to as always happens in these things and facts were ignored, mis-stated, or totally absent.  It is all well and good to say that we are going to walk away from the EU, but what is the plan for where you go?  There is none, because the "remain" side never expected this, and the "leave" side appears to have ignored it.  If they hadn't, they surely would have brought it forth by now.
 
I am not saying yah or nay to the issue or the question.  My initial post was merely to point out that this was not well thought through, and it was an inappropriate subject to place before the populace if the outcome was to be binding.  Referenda are not the best way to decide issues that are so important, primarily because the true complete facts are usually not known or worked out, and the population is generally not that competent.  I put myself in this comment; I readily admit that if I were faced with such a referendum here, I would be scared to death and want to know much more about the "leave" result so I could intelligently decide for myself from fact, not emotion.  As I said, both BC refernda were decided not on the actual issue but on the frustration with the government and that is completely wrong. 
 
Byron.

 

[Ch4rlie]

Byron, I intended it as i agree with your post regarding attitudes and how this can affect referendums, usually in an ugly way.
 
As for Corbyn, he does come across that way sometimes, but he is a politician after all!
 
Also never said Corbyn's quote was made up by the media, sorry if that part was how that came across. But the media, especially the BBC truly are making mountains out of molehills here and this is something I wholly do not like seeing at all as its almost if they are trying to whip up a frenzy amongst the remain camp voters. I can now see how wars are started with the media playing the piper.
 
Rightly or wrongly, the country has voted and I for one, would like to see the government get some backbone and actually implement what they promise for once without rhetorics.
 
It is a bit of mess really at the moment but once all the hype has died down, we will see what happens when we actually leave the EU in a few years time.
 
Simply put, there are no right or wrong opinions as there is no way anyone can foresee 100% how this will play out. But I actually do appreciate everyone's point of view and it is kind of interesting actually to be entirely honest.

 

[Akasha72]

 
 
But the media, especially the BBC truly are making mountains out of molehills here and this is something I wholly do not like seeing at all as its almost if they are trying to whip up a frenzy amongst the remain camp voters. I can now see how wars are started with the media playing the piper.
 

 
Ain't that the truth! If they would just shut up, butt out and leave well alone there wouldn't be the widespread panic that we are seeing. They are constantly telling us that is doesn't look good in the markets with the pound being down against the Dollar but the Euro is even lower and had we have remained part of the EU I truely believe we would have been forced to accept the Euro whether we wanted it or not. 
 
The markets are never stable ... they can be affected by the simplest of things ... even bad weather!! To be reporting such demoralistic views and feeding it into our brains they are stoking the fire of fear and I wish they'd just stop.

 

[Baccus]

I might try putting it a different way, does anyone think that the EU would have ever changed its governing policies and directives it dished out to all its member countires if the coountries in question only had a prime minister (or equivilent) approaching the corporate (yes I mean it in the businness sense) might of the EU on bended begging knee? Would the EU have ever listened to an individual countries leader who told them that his/her country was not happy with the EU's meddling and decrees? No I believe the so called untouchable elite, would have scoffed, laughed and simply joked "And what can you possibly hope to do about it?" Assuming that they had the might and that each country and its people was suitably down trodden enough to just accept what ever the EU wanted to dish out.
I see this leave vote of the UK's as a wake up call, a wake up that I think all powers that be need to take heed of. The people gave the governments etc their power and the people can still take that power away and place it where the people believe its best placed.
There was I believe far more reasons for the leave vote than the mainstream media will ever attempt to poke a stick at. Some of the reasons are very valid such as the fear that the EU intended to privatise the public health system, forcing a USA style health system on a population that had grown up and funded via taxes the public health system. The lack of suitable housing for the current people in the UK without being forced to take yet more people and house/ clothe and feed them. I am sure there are many other reasons and its never as black and white as the privately owned multi-millionaire media would have everyone believe.
 
Right now in Australia both major political parties are gearing up for their last push in advertising before this weeks election. Both sides are running scared but still will not admit that its anything they have done wrong. Instead they want to paint the public as racists and uneducated for not voting them in. Instead of the real reasons like government controlled well fair cards that limit the persons spending to only a couple of shops, travel methods and ways of booking and paying for the travel, while severely restricting the ability of the person to pay for things like school fees, car registeration or any other non food related bill. And Farmers and aged pensioners are being given no real help. The list goes on and the reasons run deeper than just a "racist" issue.

 

[Akasha72]

good post Baccus and I think you've hit on some good points.
 
The people in power in the UK (the government) are now just a bunch of rich public school boys who were mostly born with a silver spoon in their mouths who wouldn't be able to tell us the price of a pint of milk. They don't live in the real world. They've never had to strive for anything. They've never had to get out of bed at 5am and shovel poop for 12 hours then go home, sleep for a few hours only to do the same again the next day and the day after that .... the people that voted to leave - or rather the area's in the UK where manual labour is the norm .... the people that do shovel poop all day long... and get by on a minimum wage are fed up of shovelling poop while those in government tell us how bad it is for them. 
 
Those people ... lets call them the poor people, see life very differently to those living in London and working in the banking industry where the heaviest thing they lift all day is a ream of paper. These are people who believe in the small things. They rely on the nhs because it's all they can afford. They rely on social housing because for them owning their own home is nothing but a pipe dream. They are the very people who look at the immigrants coming in, who will shovel poop for far less money for far longer hours, thus driving down wages, and they feel disgruntled. They see these posh snobs in government going off on their jollies, swigging champayne at tax payer expense and they feel angry. And someone comes along and says "hey, did you know we send £350 million to Brussels every DAY... and that's YOUR money" and they feel something close to mind blowing rage ... And who can blame them. 
 
Their fears are real. They struggle now to put food on the table to feed their kids. They are fighting to get school places in their local community - perhaps an area they've lived their whole lives - because the kids of immigrants need to be schooled and the school is already over subscribed. They may be living in a two bed flat with 3 kids and watch immigrants being handed a 3 bed council home. To them life can't get any worse and so they look for a solution ... and maybe, just maybe this referendum vote is the solution. You can't blame them for thinking as I do ... that £350 million is an obscene amount of money ... they don't care about the subsidies that come back because they never see them! All they see is that obscene figure and think "that money needs to be spent HERE ... in my community ... in my nhs, in my school, in building more social housing etc.
 
I believe some of those people did see this vote as a message to the government but I also believe they see this as our chance to make a change to their rubbish lives. Charity begins at home ... I've heard that saying a lot just lately when talking about this referendum and I get it ... I really do

 

[Byron]

Don Pittis, a news reporter with CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, no affiliation whatsoever to BBC for those who think BBC is biased), wrote an analysis entitled “Desperately seeking alternatives to Brexit financial mess” from which the following is taken verbatim.
 
For people who believe in strong democracy, comments by some of the people who voted to leave indicating that they really didn't know what they were voting for, were devastating.  Many said they thought the Remain side was so sure to win they only voted Leave to give the government a scare. The turnout at 72 per cent was high by the standards of modern electoral voting.
 
Nonetheless other critics complain that the narrow margin of victory for the Leave side combined with the fact that more that a quarter of those eligible didn't vote means the U.K. is being torn apart by a relatively small group.  "So 37 per cent of eligible voters wreak havoc with those inside AND outside U.K.," tweeted Canadian Jim Boxall. "Shouldn't nature of issue and impact suggest a higher bar?"
 
Boxall isn't alone in thinking referendums do not always provide a healthy democratic result. Many people, including the founders of the U.S. constitution, feared that voting each issue by popular consent, sometimes called government by referendum, would create confused and irreconcilable outcomes, says Harvard scholar Jennifer L. Hochschild.
 
Many politicians and scholars have long maintained that unschooled voters can be manipulated into making decisions that are against their or their country's national interests. They are just not properly informed.  ​"Political scientists and activists still debate whether citizens are capable of making wise choices through direct elections, and whether referenda on substantive issues should be limited," writes Hochschild.
 
Now as a solution to the problems created by the first referendum, a group of activists in the as-yet-United Kingdom want to hold another.  "We the undersigned call upon HM Government to implement a rule that if the Remain or Leave vote is less than 60 per cent based a turnout less than 75 per cent, there should be another referendum," says an online petition that as I write has more than three million signatures.
 
But further petitions may not be necessary. With a skirl of bagpipes, the Scots are marching to the rescue. Scotland's first minister, Nicola Sturgeon says that on the breakup of the European Union, the votes of the Scottish parliament outweigh that of a referendum.
 
Sturgeon said "of course" she would ask lawmakers sitting in the parliament to decline to give their "legislative consent" to Brexit, blocking any attempt by the British government in London to proceed with a split from Europe, Efe news reported.  "If the Scottish parliament was judging this on the basis of what's right for Scotland, then the option of saying look we're not to vote for something that's against Scotland's interest, of course that's got to be on the table," the first minister said.  Sturgeon also said she suspected that "the UK government will take a very different view on that and we'll have to see where that discussion ends up".
 
A Scottish challenge to the referendum could send the decision straight back into the hands of Britain's highest court, Parliament, the place where many say outgoing Prime Minister David Cameron, who has announced his resignation following the fiasco, should have left it.
 
At stake is one of the founding issues of the British constitution, the Sovereignty of Parliament. That means that neither the Queen, the courts, nor even a referendum can stand in the way of what the elected representatives decide.  Political decisions are complicated.  In a parliamentary system it is up to our elected representatives to study all those complexities, find a course that is in the country's best interests and then take responsibility for that decision.   Referendums are a pretense to take that responsibility out of their hands.
 
By itself the referendum has no legal binding power.  Opponents will make the case that for such a staggering eventuality, which could include the dissolution of the historic United Kingdom, a referendum is not enough.  Britain needs an election.
 
Perhaps that is why that wily political operator, German Chancellor Angela Merkel, is in no rush to impose Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty that would seal the British divorce from the EU.  Merkel knows that in politics, it is never too late for reconciliation.

 

[fluttermoth]

if the vote isn't binding then why the hell did we have one in the first place? It's rediculous.

Yes, yes it is.

This referendum should never have happened. The issues were always far too complex to be put to a simple public opinion poll. The general public has better things to do with its time than wade through pages and pages of legalese trying to understand the issues. It is for this very reason we elect MPs and a parliament in the first place.

What sickens me is that, according to many political commentators, this was never meant to happen.

Cameron promised a referendum for two reasons; one to try and heal the europhile/eurosceptic rift in his own party, and secondly as a populist sop to the public to help him win the last general election. Johnson, Gove and the other 'Leavers' saw an opportunity to split the party and gain power for themselves. The fact that the political elite may well have held the future of this country to ransom, for their own political game playing is absolutely abhorrent.

The campaign, on both sides, has been characterised by disinformation, mistruths, hyperbole, and outright lies which, IMO, have seriously damaged the democratic process. Many people I know, including one of my sons and my own mother, voted leave and are now seriously regretting it after discovering that most of the things they voted for are not going to happen. They've been lied to, and they're hurt, and they have my deepest sympathies.

But what's most disturbing to me, personally, is the bringing to the surface an ugly undercurrent of hate, spite and intolerance that has shocked me to my very core. Whatever happens, I'm not sure that genie can ever be put back in it's bottle. There are couple of internet fora that I've been a member of for many years (over 10, in one case) where I am actually too scared to post on this subject because of the bile spouting from the mouths of some people. These are people I've been talking to for a decade; I thought I knew them, thought they were decent people. I honestly thought we, as humans beings, were better than this.

These are, without doubt, the darkest days I've ever had the misfortune to live through.

 

[Akasha72]

I would agree with you Fluttermoth. Both sides lied but only the leave voters were branded racists. Anyone who know's me know's I am not racist ... never have been never will be. I consider myself a tollerant person. I believe every human on the planet has the right to an opinion ... and I have a right to either agree or disagree ... it's what makes our crazy world turn around. 
 
My choice to vote leave wasn't about having racist views, although I admit to being worried about the mass scale immigration especially the strain it is causing on the things that matter to normal people - hospital/doctors, schools, housing etc
 
I'm also seriously annoyed that we took the democratic process and 'Leave' won but here we are pushing a week later and government are still stalling on carrying out the majorities wishes and I can't help feeling that had the vote gone the other way we wouldn't still be debating it!
 
Today's politicians are a joke. They are all so wrapped up in their own self importance that they can't (and won't) see what the general public want. Even the EU parliament are telling em to 'get on with it'!

 

[fluttermoth]

I would agree with you Fluttermoth. Both sides lied but only the leave voters were branded racists. Anyone who know's me know's I am not racist ... never have been never will be. I consider myself a tollerant person. I believe every human on the planet has the right to an opinion ... and I have a right to either agree or disagree ... it's what makes our crazy world turn around.

Akasha; We've always got on well and I would never, ever, even for a moment, consider you a racist.
 
I've got many members of my family, including one of my sons and my own mother, that voted leave, and I know for a fact that they're not racists either. Many people, like you, had very good, considered reasons for voting leave, and I would not, and will never, judge anyone by the way they choose to vote. As my very wise late father used to say, "Whoever you vote for, it's always the government that gets in!". Life is far too short to fall out with people over politics.

Not all leavers are racist, but all racists are leavers, sadly. Your well considered opinions and reasoning have been badly misrepresented, and reasonable voices like yours have been drowned out by a small but very nasty vocal minority, and I feel very sorry that you personally, and others like you, have had that accusation leveled at you. It's totally unacceptable.

 

[iliveinazoo]

@Byron, Chancellor Merkel cannot invoke article 50 because only the member state that decides to leave can invoke it. 
 
Merkel, Hollande and Renzi have disappointed, but not surprised me by refusing to talk about any terms for leaving before the UK does invoke article 50.
 
Your Wily old political operator Merkel could have played a massive part in retaining the UK and it would have been very easy and without pain.  They could have taken away the rights of the EU courts to supersede the UK courts in domestic state issues and accepted that it was unfair for the UK taxpayer to have to pay child benefit for children that lived outside of the UK.
 
The problem is that fundamentally the EU is the United States of Europe by the back door and is about the slow but steady progress towards the final creation of a super-state.  That is why it has a flag, an anthem, a single currency and 3 presidents.  That is also why it wants to create its own army.
 
@Fluttermoth, yes Cameron did promise a referendum to settle a rift in the Tory party and to get elected but that was because he saw no other option, there has been a huge demand for a referendum for years because we have consistently handed over sovereignty for the last couple of decades.  It is no coincidence that the rise of UKIP coincided with the erosion of the UK's sovereignty, it was a scary thought to many that UKIP could hold a large number of seats in the House of Commons and I voted Tory so that I could get the referendum and hopefully halt the rise of UKIP.
 
I am sure that there are a few that voted leave and have seen the FTSE and pound tank and are now worried and have said that they didn't mean it but when the dust settles they may well sway back and be happy with their original vote.
 
As I said before it would have been easy for the EU to retain the UK because all they had to do was respect the democracy of their member states, it is a shame that they didn't but that is the way the cookie crumbles.

 

[Akasha72]

 

I would agree with you Fluttermoth. Both sides lied but only the leave voters were branded racists. Anyone who know's me know's I am not racist ... never have been never will be. I consider myself a tollerant person. I believe every human on the planet has the right to an opinion ... and I have a right to either agree or disagree ... it's what makes our crazy world turn around.

Akasha; We've always got on well and I would never, ever, even for a moment, consider you a racist.
 
 
 

 
Sorry, I wasn't suggesting that you were, sorry if you mis-understood my point. That wasn't what I was trying to say. I was trying to say that many Remain voters, if the media are to be believed, are calling those that voted 'Leave' racist and zenophobic (hell, I don't even know what that means!! I'd have to get the dictionary out and look it up!) 
 
Just wanted to make that point cos I'm well aware that that is how wars are started lol