Dog question 9with a sad start)

[gilltyascharged]

The thread is a year old, and my dog will be a year old tomorrow.

I have discovered the shelters in my corner of the world are empty, except for pit bulls, and even they're rare. I couldn't find mutt or a rescue, but I did find another white golden, and she's perfect.

Almost all the rescues around here are trucked in from Texas, and I find the whole business very sketchy.

Oh my gosh, Gary...I found this thread late the other night and thought it was from two weeks ago.
I'm so sorry to revive an old (and should-be-dead) thread, I really should have looked closer at it.

On the other hand, I'm glad to hear that you were able to find the dog you wanted--Happy (early) birthday to her!

 

[GaryE]

Thanks. Anything I can learn about dogs and fish is worth reading, and worth keeping in a corner of my brain. I've enjoyed reading these new posts.

 

[Alice B]

The thread is a year old, and my dog will be a year old tomorrow.

I have discovered the shelters in my corner of the world are empty, except for pit bulls, and even they're rare. I couldn't find mutt or a rescue, but I did find another white golden, and she's perfect.

Almost all the rescues around here are trucked in from Texas, and I find the whole business very sketchy.

Texas considers dogs property, will not enforce spay neuter laws and we have an embarrassing number of puppy mills and back yard breeders, with dogs being euthanized daily in the Fort Worth and Dallas shelters. Some of the other cities do better

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

I have to vote for the rottweiler, or a rottweiler mix. I've had german shepherds, mixes, border collie / gsd mix, dobies and mixes, and a shar pei. I've had a couple of rottweiler mixes. I have a 6 year old rottie mix now I got as a pup, the only dog I have now that isn't a senior. Smart but not too smart, big babies, stick right by you, afraid of the cat, or not afraid of the cat but a lower prey drive than shepherds and dobies. I loved my border collies but they all seemed to be obsessed and fearful about something, and they are smarter than many people which has its ups and downs, combined with that fear. They don't listen when the fear kicks in.
I didn't get a rottweiler til all the kids were grown and when all my current seniors have passed, I will get another one to keep wulfwarro company. his mama was a rottie. I think dad was gsd and hound. He was destined for a shelter at 3 months when I got him.

I think every rottie I've ever met, bar one or two brief exceptions, has been the sweetest, friendliest cuddlebug! I also love that certainly in at least my part of the UK lately, I've been seeing more and more rotties with their full tails! Such gorgeous swishy tails, they're so appealing with a full tail and flopped ears!

I could go on and on about why the "doodle craze" is spinning out of control. (SKIP DOWN TO NEXT BOLDED PART TO AVOID RANT)

While a good 10-20 years ago (heck, even in the 1950s) it was perfectly fine because there WAS some of that hybrid-vigor, now people will simply keep their dogs unaltered in attempts to breed them and make money. Most of the breeders online are either a) scammers, b) keep their dogs in absolutely horrible conditions, or (the most common) c) don't list the cons of a doodle. For the most part, they aren't completely hypoallergenic, and many people aren't prepared for their energy levels or grooming needs. They are sold on the fact that it's a cute looking dog that doesn't have the "prissiness" of a Poodle, but instead is the everyman's Golden Retriever in a non-shedding package.

Agree with so much of the rant! Although not specifically against labradoodles as such - and I do think the original guy behind it had good intentions, at least somewhat at first - but more the way it changed things from "crossbreeds and mutts/mongrels" to "Sprollie" and "Jug" - sometimes even 3-4 breed names smooshed together into a new nonsense that we're all just meant to know what breeds are in there. And being produced by randoms in their backyards crossing wildly suitable pets with zero thought towards health, temperament etc, just whatever is either a large, aggressive looking status symbol, or the latest fashion trend mixes churned out for cash, and priced higher than actual purebreds from a good breeder!

I'm getting old. When I was a kid, dogs were either a breed, noted as a crossbreed by labelling both breeds, or a mutt, mongrel, Heinz 57, and none of that was bad! I had a Springer/Cocker, could never bring myself to call him a "Sprocker" or my girl now a "Sprollie". It just sounds so silly to me. It's not a new breed, could turn out to have any mix of traits from those breeds, and crossing any random Pug with a random Jack Russell has not created some new, reliable standard with certain traits a new owner can reasonably predict, since they're very different dogs with very different needs. Most pug owners, honestly, would soon struggle and stress if they've only ever had pugs, but their new "Jug" has been crossed with a 5th generation working line Jack Russell with a high prey drive and stubbornness in spades!! Or they could wind up with something very pug-like, but with a much improved snout and less bugged out eyes, and realise how nice it is that this version of a pug can breathe without collapsing on a mild hike.

That may make a great choice! While I'm not sure how common retired Greys are in North America (I know that's big in the UK, but I don't think it is as much in the US and Canada), they are amazing dogs.

Super available in the UK, sadly, dog racing is still popular - although when my closest friend got a retired racer Greyhound as his first dog of his own, turned out to be an American Greyhound, and he's huge! Bigger than most Greyhounds I've seen. Friend has already converted his mum, who adopted a lurcher now, and I know my friend is now hooked on Greyhounds for life! I've developed a new appreciation for them too, since spending more time with a lot of them. Now he seems to know all the sighthound people in his area, so often ends up dogsitting for a friend who already had two Greys, and just added a Borzoi puppy to her household. Never spent much time around Borzoi's before, and while he's absolutely beautiful, and charming, and loveable - he's also pretty challenging, at a year old!

For UK folks, Greyhounds are an amazing choice for a lot of people, as long as they prepare themselves for what to expect of course, but that goes for any breed.

Our oldest dog is an Aussie/Sheltie mix--while he's quite mellow at 15 years old, it still took him over a decade to get there. Incessant herding, frequent barking (be it to let us know that the cat's on the countertop, or that the neighbor kid walked past our house), constant neediness, and the sheer power of the anxiety...as Uberhoust says above, once they fixate on it, there's no turning back. Herding breeds are amazing, but only if you have the time and emotional energy to give them the attention (and job) they need.

Couldn't agree more! My Springer/Collie is the smartest dog I've ever owned, learns incredibly fast, and I knew exactly what I was getting into - and love all the challenges and work that I had to put in to give her both the mental and physical exercise she needed, especially in those first couple of years. Those busy collie brains are so prone to becoming neurotic and unhappy if not channelled in the right ways! I love them for most of those things - but also don't recommend them to many people, because they're really not for everyone! Wonderful dogs. fantastic at their jobs, excel in dog sports etc for those reasons, but need a huge investment in time and mental energy too.

Heck, I love them, and considering looking for Spaniel/collie mixes in the future to train for search and rescue - but even then, I couldn't have managed one when I was striking out as a young adult, both working and studying full time. Or if I had a bunch of young kids and needed a dog that was more of a mellow lovebug who can play in the garden with the kids all day then snooze on the sofa all evening. Not a neurotic dog destroying the house, nipping toddlers legs, and also needing to load up the kids and dog into the car for weekly agility classes and 3 hours of walking a day.

People, place and period of life makes a big difference.

The thread is a year old, and my dog will be a year old tomorrow.

Belated Birthday Barks for the BorkBork!

Since the thread has been bumped now, and lots of people hadn't seen that you have Mabel now, I think it's okay for me to ask for an updated photo of the Birthday Girl as thread tax, right?

 

[GaryE]

Where I grew up, dogs were everywhere, and breeds were abstract ideas. All dogs were mutts.
Occasionally, you saw a German Shepherd. That was the tough guy strutting with a symbol back then dog, and we had a fair number of tough guys around. But the whole breeds with associated traits conversation never happened. We had big mutts, small mutts, terriers and poodle mixes.
The ones shipping in from Texas didn't seem to be rescues to me. They are too uniform in age and size. I think it's a puppy mill with an alternative marketing strategy. They ship up a large number of stacked crates with young dogs in a truck (with waste raining down on the lower crated dogs), and drive through to 4 or 5 towns with the dogs adopted (and paid for) in advance.
I've only met a very few non neutered dogs around here. I've never seen a stray. People like me want to help dogs, and rescues are sought after. I gave up looking and went with a purebred puppy. I've no regrets about the dog, she's great. But the process, yeah.
Mabel's having a good birthday, though it's early in the day here. We had a short walk as the sun was rising (so we could see and avoid our new neighbour, a skunk), then we came in, she ate and had a nap. Now she's watching the gulls and crows through the window, dreaming of life with wings so she could properly chase them.
We're waiting for the ground to thaw so I can build a large fenced enclosure in the yard so she can run a bit more. It'll have shades trees and galloping room, but I'm certain her sworn enemies the crows will mock her from the other side of the fence. it's tough when your dog doesn't like your other friends.

 

[gilltyascharged]

Where I grew up, dogs were everywhere, and breeds were abstract ideas. All dogs were mutts.
Occasionally, you saw a German Shepherd. That was the tough guy strutting with a symbol back then dog, and we had a fair number of tough guys around. But the whole breeds with associated traits conversation never happened. We had big mutts, small mutts, terriers and poodle mixes.
The ones shipping in from Texas didn't seem to be rescues to me. They are too uniform in age and size. I think it's a puppy mill with an alternative marketing strategy. They ship up a large number of stacked crates with young dogs in a truck (with waste raining down on the lower crated dogs), and drive through to 4 or 5 towns with the dogs adopted (and paid for) in advance.
I've only met a very few non neutered dogs around here. I've never seen a stray. People like me want to help dogs, and rescues are sought after. I gave up looking and went with a purebred puppy. I've no regrets about the dog, she's great. But the process, yeah.
Mabel's having a good birthday, though it's early in the day here. We had a short walk as the sun was rising (so we could see and avoid our new neighbour, a skunk), then we came in, she ate and had a nap. Now she's watching the gulls and crows through the window, dreaming of life with wings so she could properly chase them.
We're waiting for the ground to thaw so I can build a large fenced enclosure in the yard so she can run a bit more. It'll have shades trees and galloping room, but I'm certain her sworn enemies the crows will mock her from the other side of the fence. it's tough when your dog doesn't like your other friends.

That's sad to hear about the shelter situation--luckily the shelters in my area are all no-kill, but will instead rotate out pets who haven't been adopted after a few months to the next shelter (that's actually how we got my first cat, who was a beautiful 18-pounder who was transferred across the state).
I'm glad that Mabel (beautiful name, by the way!) is having a good birthday--she and Max should ally together against those gosh-darn crows, always eating the food I intentionally set out for them!

 

[gilltyascharged]

I think every rottie I've ever met, bar one or two brief exceptions, has been the sweetest, friendliest cuddlebug! I also love that certainly in at least my part of the UK lately, I've been seeing more and more rotties with their full tails! Such gorgeous swishy tails, they're so appealing with a full tail and flopped ears!


Agree with so much of the rant! Although not specifically against labradoodles as such - and I do think the original guy behind it had good intentions, at least somewhat at first - but more the way it changed things from "crossbreeds and mutts/mongrels" to "Sprollie" and "Jug" - sometimes even 3-4 breed names smooshed together into a new nonsense that we're all just meant to know what breeds are in there. And being produced by randoms in their backyards crossing wildly suitable pets with zero thought towards health, temperament etc, just whatever is either a large, aggressive looking status symbol, or the latest fashion trend mixes churned out for cash, and priced higher than actual purebreds from a good breeder!

I'm getting old. When I was a kid, dogs were either a breed, noted as a crossbreed by labelling both breeds, or a mutt, mongrel, Heinz 57, and none of that was bad! I had a Springer/Cocker, could never bring myself to call him a "Sprocker" or my girl now a "Sprollie". It just sounds so silly to me. It's not a new breed, could turn out to have any mix of traits from those breeds, and crossing any random Pug with a random Jack Russell has not created some new, reliable standard with certain traits a new owner can reasonably predict, since they're very different dogs with very different needs. Most pug owners, honestly, would soon struggle and stress if they've only ever had pugs, but their new "Jug" has been crossed with a 5th generation working line Jack Russell with a high prey drive and stubbornness in spades!! Or they could wind up with something very pug-like, but with a much improved snout and less bugged out eyes, and realise how nice it is that this version of a pug can breathe without collapsing on a mild hike.




Super available in the UK, sadly, dog racing is still popular - although when my closest friend got a retired racer Greyhound as his first dog of his own, turned out to be an American Greyhound, and he's huge! Bigger than most Greyhounds I've seen. Friend has already converted his mum, who adopted a lurcher now, and I know my friend is now hooked on Greyhounds for life! I've developed a new appreciation for them too, since spending more time with a lot of them. Now he seems to know all the sighthound people in his area, so often ends up dogsitting for a friend who already had two Greys, and just added a Borzoi puppy to her household. Never spent much time around Borzoi's before, and while he's absolutely beautiful, and charming, and loveable - he's also pretty challenging, at a year old!

For UK folks, Greyhounds are an amazing choice for a lot of people, as long as they prepare themselves for what to expect of course, but that goes for any breed.


Couldn't agree more! My Springer/Collie is the smartest dog I've ever owned, learns incredibly fast, and I knew exactly what I was getting into - and love all the challenges and work that I had to put in to give her both the mental and physical exercise she needed, especially in those first couple of years. Those busy collie brains are so prone to becoming neurotic and unhappy if not channelled in the right ways! I love them for most of those things - but also don't recommend them to many people, because they're really not for everyone! Wonderful dogs. fantastic at their jobs, excel in dog sports etc for those reasons, but need a huge investment in time and mental energy too.

Heck, I love them, and considering looking for Spaniel/collie mixes in the future to train for search and rescue - but even then, I couldn't have managed one when I was striking out as a young adult, both working and studying full time. Or if I had a bunch of young kids and needed a dog that was more of a mellow lovebug who can play in the garden with the kids all day then snooze on the sofa all evening. Not a neurotic dog destroying the house, nipping toddlers legs, and also needing to load up the kids and dog into the car for weekly agility classes and 3 hours of walking a day.

People, place and period of life makes a big difference.



Belated Birthday Barks for the BorkBork!

Since the thread has been bumped now, and lots of people hadn't seen that you have Mabel now, I think it's okay for me to ask for an updated photo of the Birthday Girl as thread tax, right?

I never would have guessed that there would be a huge difference in Greyhounds across the Atlantic--however, I guess it doesn't surprise me. They seem to be used more for dog racing over in the UK, whilst in America lure-coursing (a dog-safe sport for sighthounds that different kennel clubs host) is probably the only sport a Greyhound will ever have to run. I know Dobermans, Shelties, and Collies look quite different overseas (with Shetlands and Collies being smaller and more refined, and Dobies having a larger, more muscular body), but am unsure as to how many other breeds that applies to. Do you happen to know if the breeders over there tend to follow FCI or KC standards? The AKC seems to be the lead over here, with the UKC being used as more of an alternative registry for hunting/working dogs (especially coonhounds, some of the unofficial "breeds" like Patterdales, Windhounds, and Feists are registerable) or new companion breeds (like the Bully or Mi-Ko).

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

I never would have guessed that there would be a huge difference in Greyhounds across the Atlantic

To be fair, I might be over-egging it a bit by stressing how big my friend's American Greyhound is- and they do vary in height, apparently he's seen bigger at his Greyhound events (that's what she said!) But I think in general, American Greyhounds tend towards being a bit bigger than UK ones.

Also because I'm used to my spaniel sized dogs, when Noodle Boy stretches out and takes up the entire floor in the room (and my Springer/Collie either leaps over him, or just walks on him, and he barely moves in response), I just always forget how big they are until they're up close and hogging the entire sofa!

Love that this Greyhound has transformed my bestie who used to tease me about being overprotective or mother-henning my own dogs, is now the most devoted dog dad the world has ever known! Spoils him rotten We're often comparing just how different our dogs are. Like when he first got him and was complaining to me about him being a picky eater, and said to me "what do you about uneaten dog food they've scattered across the floor?" and I laughed before saying I've had spaniels or labs - nothing edible hits the floor, let alone stays there untouched!

I know Dobermans, Shelties, and Collies look quite different overseas (with Shetlands and Collies being smaller and more refined, and Dobies having a larger, more muscular body), but am unsure as to how many other breeds that applies to. Do you happen to know if the breeders over there tend to follow FCI or KC standards?

I didn't know Shetlands and Collies looked different! I need to check out some comparisons now, ty! I'm not involved in breeding or showing - I tend to prefer working lines over show lines, so I don't know which standards most breeders choose to go by, probably varies by breed, but I've only heard people who breed for show talking about Kennel Club standards and registration. The English Springer breeders I knew only bred from dogs that worked well and did well in the working dog trials, and much less worried about show standards. Their main pack of eight dogs when I knew them varied so much in their looks! Big differences in size, coats, muzzle shape... I can tell from my girl's coat and drives that she's from working lines, while my old Springer/Cocker had a much prettier coat and more of a dome to his head, and much lower energy levels/drive, so more show line style than working type.

Have to say that there's a big difference between Springer and Cocker spaniels in the US vs the UK, and I hate to say it, but I much prefer the English ones, Cocker Spaniels especially. The dome to the American's head looks much too abrupt to me, but I'm sure that's largely just because I'm much more familiar with and used to the gentle slope of the head to the muzzle with an English Cocker:

This particular American Cocker Spaniel has an especially grumpy looking facial expression though, TBF!


I've also heard that working line labs in the US are pretty different from the ones here? But that might be the book/film Marley and Me giving me a false impression! I haven't met any labs from US lines that I'm aware of, but it sounds like working line labs there might be really fun to work with! More general purpose hunting dogs, rather than specifically retrievers? I can imagine them being bred to work while in the wilds of the USA and Canada, while here, the gun dog labs tend to just be stomping around the English countryside with posh land owners, fetching pheasants and facing nothing worse than maybe an annoyed badger!

 

[gilltyascharged]

To be fair, I might be over-egging it a bit by stressing how big my friend's American Greyhound is- and they do vary in height, apparently he's seen bigger at his Greyhound events (that's what she said!) But I think in general, American Greyhounds tend towards being a bit bigger than UK ones.

Also because I'm used to my spaniel sized dogs, when Noodle Boy stretches out and takes up the entire floor in the room (and my Springer/Collie either leaps over him, or just walks on him, and he barely moves in response), I just always forget how big they are until they're up close and hogging the entire sofa!

Love that this Greyhound has transformed my bestie who used to tease me about being overprotective or mother-henning my own dogs, is now the most devoted dog dad the world has ever known! Spoils him rotten We're often comparing just how different our dogs are. Like when he first got him and was complaining to me about him being a picky eater, and said to me "what do you about uneaten dog food they've scattered across the floor?" and I laughed before saying I've had spaniels or labs - nothing edible hits the floor, let alone stays there untouched!


I didn't know Shetlands and Collies looked different! I need to check out some comparisons now, ty! I'm not involved in breeding or showing - I tend to prefer working lines over show lines, so I don't know which standards most breeders choose to go by, probably varies by breed, but I've only heard people who breed for show talking about Kennel Club standards and registration. The English Springer breeders I knew only bred from dogs that worked well and did well in the working dog trials, and much less worried about show standards. Their main pack of eight dogs when I knew them varied so much in their looks! Big differences in size, coats, muzzle shape... I can tell from my girl's coat and drives that she's from working lines, while my old Springer/Cocker had a much prettier coat and more of a dome to his head, and much lower energy levels/drive, so more show line style than working type.

Have to say that there's a big difference between Springer and Cocker spaniels in the US vs the UK, and I hate to say it, but I much prefer the English ones, Cocker Spaniels especially. The dome to the American's head looks much too abrupt to me, but I'm sure that's largely just because I'm much more familiar with and used to the gentle slope of the head to the muzzle with an English Cocker:



This particular American Cocker Spaniel has an especially grumpy looking facial expression though, TBF!


I've also heard that working line labs in the US are pretty different from the ones here? But that might be the book/film Marley and Me giving me a false impression! I haven't met any labs from US lines that I'm aware of, but it sounds like working line labs there might be really fun to work with! More general purpose hunting dogs, rather than specifically retrievers? I can imagine them being bred to work while in the wilds of the USA and Canada, while here, the gun dog labs tend to just be stomping around the English countryside with posh land owners, fetching pheasants and facing nothing worse than maybe an annoyed badger!

While I'm still a bit too young to get fully involved in breeding and/or showing (I've heard mixed opinions about the culture, still contemplating), I think that the difference between show vs. work lines really depends on the breed. For instance, there are plenty of Poodles with show titles AND field/trial titles! The breed standard requires them to keep the body of a gundog, meaning that any well-bred line has the body fit for it. Now, there are lines that specialize in sport dogs (especially miniature poodles--generally either dogs bred for a calm temperament, destined to be companions/family dogs, or high-energy little dynamos best in the agility ring), but these individuals tend to have the same physical conformation.

On the other hand, some breeds look extremely different between the show and work lines. Show lines tend to have conformation and temperament in mind (more laid back, typically larger, stockier structure), whilst performance lines have...well, performance in mind!
Now, I will admit that it gets more complicated. Some breeds have the American vs. European conformation factor, whilst others have different strains or subtypes. Take for instance, the Labrador Retriever. There is are American labs (narrow head, more energetic), British labs (broader head, longer muzzle), and English labs (broad head, stocky body). All three of these subtypes have a show line and a field line. Same thing with German Shepherds--there are West German, East German, American, and Czech lines, each with their own variation depending on show or working line.

Breed​	Show Line​	Performance/Working Line​
Border Collie​
Golden Retriever​
English Springer Spaniel​
Labrador Retriever (American)​

Then you have dogs like the English Setter, that have several distinct lines not judged by show or working, but by the performance of said line (the Llewellin strain dogs are the field line, while the Laverack strain was used as the foundation for today's show dogs).
Other times a breed will have multiple companion and working lines (occasionally with specific kennel lines within a bloodline), relying on distinct appearances, performance technique, and temperament to tell them apart--the "Pitbull," a name that can apply to several different breeds (American Staffordshire Terriers, Staffordshire Bull Terriers, American Pitbull Terriers, and American Bullies), has over 50 bloodlines combined between the aforementioned breeds. While very few are still used in dog fighting (though some have taken this disgusting sport underground), the strains that were originally bred for such (also known as "game-bred") are still around today for preservation purposes. Though highly diluted from the original bloodline, these dogs are still highly intense dogs that require highly experienced owners who know how to channel their "instincts" properly.

Although somewhat less confusing, the most broad categories within a breed pertain to the differences in American and English/European standards. Some breeds are so far removed from their counterparts that they've formed separate breeds entirely, as you pointed out above with American Cocker Spaniels (think: the "Lady and the Tramp" type, with a shorter muzzle and domed skull) and English Cocker Spaniels (while they sport the classic "cocker" body, their head is more reminiscent of a springer spaniel or a setter). With others however, the differences are still slight enough that, while they look different, they are clearly still the same breed.
Below, you can see that both the American Sheltie and Collie have a broader, longer muzzle with a broader space between the eyes, whilst their European counterparts have a shorter, more delicate muzzle and a cleaner stop. American Dobermans are smaller and more lithe than European Dobermanns (change in spelling overseas--like most spelling, such as colour vs color, Americans simplified), and sport a smaller head and straighter back. Both dogs are proportional, but it's the little variations like that that separate them.

Breed	American	European
Doberman(n) Pinscher​
Shetland Sheepdog​
Collie​