Cycling With Fish - Help Needed

[mart70]

Hi, I am new to keeping fish and have a 64l tank set up with plants and am doing cyling with hardy fish, The fish are fine however I just tested the water last night and have no ammonia, 0.5 ppm Nitrite and 40 ppm Nitrate. I am feeding the fish about 1.5 flakes each once a day and only have 4 Leopard Danios and 2 Corydoras so I'm not over feeding or overstocked. The tank has been up and running for nearly 3 weeks.

I do 20% water changes every 3-4 days and did one last night as a result of my first home water test.

I just want to check, am I doing this correct and the water readings will be safe in time or is there something else I should be considering? I set the temperature at 25c.

Any help greatly appreciated.

 

[Chad]

Here's a link on the forum that should help you out http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/224306-fish-in-cycling/ It's a whole article about fish-in cycling that probably answers all the questions you have!

 

[fluttermoth]

The nitrite reading is a bit of a worry; you should really try to keep both ammonia and nitrite from reaching 0.25ppm.

In practice that means doing water changes until both read 0, as they'll begin to rise again as soon as your water change is finished.

If that means daily (or even twice daily, in some cases) 90% water changes, then that's what you'll have to do.

The fact that you have a reading for nitrite at all is a good sign, as that means you have at least some of the ammonia eating bacteria growing.

Keep testing every day, and doing the water changes

 

[mart70]

Ok thanks for the advice. The guy at the pet shop said I might be losing the very bacteria I need to grow by doing the water changes so regularly and suggested cutting down on doing it. I just dont want to harm the fish I already have. He also told me not to clean my filter and suggested a bottle of something or other that helps reduce ammonia and nitrite.

Is he making any sense? How long does it normally take for the nitrgen cycle to get established?

 

[Yanks15]

As tcamos said, take a look at that link. Everyones cycles take their own time. Doing fish-less works differently than fish-in. As for the LFS guy, the bacteria you are growing are mainly in the filter media so doing water changes does not harm their growth. It will however make your cycle take longer because you are removing the very substance that they need to grow- ammonia. Unfortunately you need to keep the levels of ammonia and nitrIte low to keep the fish healthy. This can be a reason why the cycle will take a long time. Most if not all people here will insist on doing fish-less cycles for these reasons. Only clean you filter media in used tank water from your water change. Just syphon out some into a bucket and rinse the gunk off. As far as a bottle of something, I would find out what that bottle is and post it here before you add it. On the whole, be patient and do those water changes daily to keep the ammonia and nitrIte levels down. Good luck.

 

[Chad]

Good advice Yanks.

 

[Yanks15]

Learned a bunch here over the years Chad

 

[Chad]

 

[Ilyas]

Th

As tcamos said, take a look at that link. Everyones cycles take their own time. Doing fish-less works differently than fish-in. As for the LFS guy, the bacteria you are growing are mainly in the filter media so doing water changes does not harm their growth. It will however make your cycle take longer because you are removing the very substance that they need to grow- ammonia. Unfortunately you need to keep the levels of ammonia and nitrIte low to keep the fish healthy. This can be a reason why the cycle will take a long time. Most if not all people here will insist on doing fish-less cycles for these reasons. Only clean you filter media in used tank water from your water change. Just syphon out some into a bucket and rinse the gunk off. As far as a bottle of something, I would find out what that bottle is and post it here before you add it. On the whole, be patient and do those water changes daily to keep the ammonia and nitrIte levels down. Good luck.

The information I found on here yesterday in regards to cycling a tank with fish states that the daily water changes do not reduce Beneficial Bacteria and in fact reduces ammonia to safer levels in the end resulting in a tank that is cycled slightly sooner. Never the less, he has no ammonia, at least when he did the test, so I feel the only way he is loosing any necessary ammonia is because the test is simply a snap shot per say at that point in time and not what is going on all day or week for instance. Perhaps I miss understood.

Doing water changes however, does not reduce the Beneficial Bacteria in your tank other than any that may be free wheeling in the tank. Beneficial Bacteria clings to things like the glass and substrate and is moved generally by force like vacuuming a tank. That being said I have become a little confused myself as far as adding stuff like Prime and Stability. I understand using Prime to dechlorinate and the like, but I do not understand why we would want to kill Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate when it is necessary to establish the tank in the first place. I can understand if the levels get ridiculous and the fish are in there, but if we are cycling to prepare for fish then why kill it?

Other than that, you have to realize a few things. Your LFS is there to sell you stuff. We are not, but we do not always agree. People come in with different experiences, trying different things. My water in Saskatchewan Canada is likely nothing like the water where you live. The issues could be as different as the water or no different at all. People also bring in a lot of emotion and passion to this hobby and at times it feels like dealing with religion or politics, but for the most part I find aquarists to just agree to disagree. Look on any forum such as a Can I stock these fish together and see how many yeses and nos you see, they will be close to equal. Water issue are no different.


I am not saying this to discourage you, but to let you know that at times you are going to have to take all the information given to you and then make a decision based not necessarily on fact or evidence but on what you are comfortable living with.

To me it sounds like your stocking levels are ok for a fully cycled tank. The test results you got make me uncomfortable but these things also happen. How long did the tank cycle before you added the first fish? Did you add the others the same day or over a course of days? Have you used any products at all? I would like to suggest Prime, but as I stated, I am a little confused about its use in cycling a tank since it is killing what the tank needs to cycle, but you have to be aware too that Nitrate is a killer to fish and ammonia, if it does not kill them can lead to other things that will kill them (such as ammonia burns that can get infected).

Again, I am not trying to scare you, I am trying to give you the information I would have liked when I started about 6 months ago. The best thing you can do for your fish is to learn the Nitrogen cycle inside and out. Learn how to keep your tank healthy and cycled and then learn about the needs of each of your fish as much as you can. Happy Fish keeping!

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Ok thanks for the advice. The guy at the pet shop said I might be losing the very bacteria I need to grow by doing the water changes so regularly and suggested cutting down on doing it. I just dont want to harm the fish I already have. He also told me not to clean my filter and suggested a bottle of something or other that helps reduce ammonia and nitrite.

Is he making any sense? How long does it normally take for the nitrgen cycle to get established?

LFS cycling advice!

"Buy product X!"

The water changes do not remove the bacteria you are trying to cultivate, they cling to surfaces... Yanks explained it correctly - you will remove the ammonia/nitrite, which the bacteria need to grow, but also are poisonous to the fish. Better to extend the cycle slightly, than to kill the fish.


As far as Prime (a quality dechlorinator, which you need to use during the water change) goes - it doesn't REMOVE the ammonia, it temporarily detoxifies it. It is a great product to use during a fish-in cycle as it will only temporarily detoxify (not "kill") the ammonia or nitrite. This wears off eventually, and then is available to the bacteria.

Doing water changes is the BEST option to keep your fish healthy during the cycle. As far as how long it will take.... that's tricky to predict. But the fact that your nitrites are up means you are about halfway done. Don't buy any product like Ammo-lock, etc. that will actually make the ammonia unavailable to the bacteria.

Good luck.


I would disagree regarding how many "yes" and "no" votes come up in threads about can you keep this fish with this other fish. There is a very strong consensus in most threads that I've read - and consensus regarding the way to conduct cycles, whether fishless or fish-in.

 

[mart70]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing - if I knew then what I know now I would have done things differently, like getting a bigger tank for starters. Anyway I had the tank up and running for about a week before I got the fish. I bought them at the same time and looking at them they seem healthy and happy in my humble opinion. The fish are hardy and have built up an immune system to deal with the unsafe levels in the tank according to the shop which seems reasonable given how active and healthy looking they are. I was told fish waste speeds up the cycle so fish in is quicker than fish out but I remain unconvinced.
I shall test the water again tonight and do another 20% change if the levels are high again.
The stuff the guy at the shop recommended was called Cycle.

 

[Chad]

Yup, just keep up the water changes and the fish will live through it and the tank will cycle. It just takes time.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

The fish are hardy and have built up an immune system to deal with the unsafe levels in the tank according to the shop which seems reasonable given how active and healthy looking they are. I was told fish waste speeds up the cycle so fish in is quicker than fish out but I remain unconvinced.
I shall test the water again tonight and do another 20% change if the levels are high again.
The stuff the guy at the shop recommended was called Cycle.

That's categorically false. There are some fish that are more sensitive to the toxin, but the fish will not build up "immunity" to it. Both ammonia and nitrite interfere with the fishes ability to take oxygen from the water.

Fish-in cycles are no faster than fishless cycles. The difference is the level you are trying to cycle the tank to. For example, the standard fishless cycle suggests a 5ppm ammonia dose to cycle the tank. This is basically equivalent to the FULL stocking level of the tank. So, you are trying to get sufficient bacteria to cycle a FULLY loaded tank. A fish-in cycle is supposed to happen with a FEW (emphasis on FEW) fish - which keeps the ammonia levels MUCH lower, and the tank can be "fully" cycled for THAT bioload. When adding new fish, you would need to continue the fish-in cycle, as the bacteria colony must grow to deal with the added bioload.


Cycle - is a waste of money, if you ask me. Patience and water changes is the best way. There are some products that some people will say work, but I've never heard anyone talking about that one. Personally, I am highly skeptical of all these products, having tried one for myself. Save your money and use it to pay for the dechlorinator, test kits, and water you are going to be using for the water changes.


BTW, you are going to need to go BIGGER than 20% for an emergency water change for the nitrite. You need to bring that level down well below 0.25ppm - ZERO is the goal. Anything higher than that is bad. For 0.5ppm I'd suggest you do at LEAST 50%, better to do 75%.

 

[fluttermoth]

Fish can't build up an immunity to ammonia or nitrite!

You might need to do more than 20%, depending on what your results are. You need to keep both ammonia and nitrite under 0.25ppm, so in practical terms that means doing enough water changes to bring them down to zero, as they'll start to rise again as soon as you stop water changing.

Fish-in cycles tend to be slower than fishless, as you can't let the ammonia or nitrite build up to such high levels; you have to keep them at a trace level for the sake of the fish.

Fish will very often not show signs of ill health, as it makes them vulnerable to predators in the wild, so behaviour can't be used as a reliable indicator of water quality

 

[Yanks15]

mart70, I have an example for you about the differences between fish-in and fish-less cycling. Back when I setup my first tank, I had no idea of what to do except advice from my LFS. I did all the things that were supposedly right, dechlor, filter, heater, test strips, etc. It was a 10gal tropical that I started with a few black neon tetras and a couple cories. Needless to say the BNT were being replaced due to death from illness often. It took a while for me to understand what was going on and my LFS kept telling me to add more fish because my tank wasn't cycled yet and that's how you do it. After much aggrevation and fish death, I finally found some forums like this to get me on the right track. Since then I have learned how to properly do things and have not had nearly the issues. Fast forward a few years to my newest tank..... 55gal Mbuna..... I did a fish-less cycle thread on this one here and with help and advice of others, I successfully finished it in a month and added 25 fish at once. That's 25! There wasn't as much as a blip in my water stats after adding that many fish because I built up enough beneficial bacteria to handle the load way before adding a single fish. Since then, knock wood, I have had not one issue at all and enjot the hobby much more now. Hope this makes sense to you. Good luck.


Steve