Cycling With Fish - Help Needed

[Ilyas]

Ok thanks for the advice. The guy at the pet shop said I might be losing the very bacteria I need to grow by doing the water changes so regularly and suggested cutting down on doing it. I just dont want to harm the fish I already have. He also told me not to clean my filter and suggested a bottle of something or other that helps reduce ammonia and nitrite.

Is he making any sense? How long does it normally take for the nitrgen cycle to get established?

LFS cycling advice!

"Buy product X!"

The water changes do not remove the bacteria you are trying to cultivate, they cling to surfaces... Yanks explained it correctly - you will remove the ammonia/nitrite, which the bacteria need to grow, but also are poisonous to the fish. Better to extend the cycle slightly, than to kill the fish.


As far as Prime (a quality dechlorinator, which you need to use during the water change) goes - it doesn't REMOVE the ammonia, it temporarily detoxifies it. It is a great product to use during a fish-in cycle as it will only temporarily detoxify (not "kill") the ammonia or nitrite. This wears off eventually, and then is available to the bacteria.

Doing water changes is the BEST option to keep your fish healthy during the cycle. As far as how long it will take.... that's tricky to predict. But the fact that your nitrites are up means you are about halfway done. Don't buy any product like Ammo-lock, etc. that will actually make the ammonia unavailable to the bacteria.

Good luck.


I would disagree regarding how many "yes" and "no" votes come up in threads about can you keep this fish with this other fish. There is a very strong consensus in most threads that I've read - and consensus regarding the way to conduct cycles, whether fishless or fish-in.

I was not refering to this site in particular, I am referring to searching threads of advice all over the net. In many cases, not all, you are going to get half saying one thing and half saying another. Also, when telling my LFS about the recommended cycling program on here (i.e. water changing daily for high ammonia or nitrite or nitrate) they gasp and say NO! Do not do more than your typical 25% weekly changes. Well, the proof is in the pudding! When following the advice on here or other sites that state the same cycling method ( I was on a different forum prior to this one) I get the desired results and my fish remain happy and healthy. My LFS is the one that does my water tests, I am standing there too of course (no money for the test kit I want to get) and they remark at how well my tank cycles. I tell them again how I am following the advice provided by this forum and they still gasp NO! LOL....this is all I was trying to say, sorry if it came across the wrong way or even offensively. Typical though, like leading a horse to water but you cant make the horse drink it. The evidence is in their face and they still deny it as fact. But I have had posted questions about stocking a tank to on the other forum and got nothing but a fight over yeses and nos to the point they are hurling insults at each other. Then I feel bad because I feel as though I started the whole thing. Anyways, Happy fish keeping and keep the great advice coming...Thanks and my apologies again!!!

 

[eaglesaquarium]

No worries. The point is that I've never seen serious splits regarding the recommendations on stocking. Usually if there is divergence in the advice, its based on the size of the tank, or the number of individuals, not normally species.



Anyway, the SCIENCE is on the side of this forum. The LFS is trying to get MONEY and so selling a product, or a replacement fish, is their goal. They need to make sales. That's just the nature of the beast. They seem to be holding to the idea that the bacteria you want live in the water. And for the fish's sake, you need to keep the fish in water with lower levels of ammonia and nitrite. You can get away with slightly higher ammonia levels with a lower pH than 0. 0.25ppm isn't actually dangerous with a pH under 7.0. So, doing a water change at that time isn't necessary. And if you are at the end of the cycle, where the AOBs are building up, it will probably be gone soon enough. And if you have 0.25ppm ammonia in your tap water or chloramines in your tap, there's no value to a water change.



Out of curiosity, llyas, what was the question? You can PM me if you'd rather not hijack the thread.

 

[jack1]

mart70, I have an example for you about the differences between fish-in and fish-less cycling. Back when I setup my first tank, I had no idea of what to do except advice from my LFS. I did all the things that were supposedly right, dechlor, filter, heater, test strips, etc. It was a 10gal tropical that I started with a few black neon tetras and a couple cories. Needless to say the BNT were being replaced due to death from illness often. It took a while for me to understand what was going on and my LFS kept telling me to add more fish because my tank wasn't cycled yet and that's how you do it. After much aggrevation and fish death, I finally found some forums like this to get me on the right track. Since then I have learned how to properly do things and have not had nearly the issues. Fast forward a few years to my newest tank..... 55gal Mbuna..... I did a fish-less cycle thread on this one here and with help and advice of others, I successfully finished it in a month and added 25 fish at once. That's 25! There wasn't as much as a blip in my water stats after adding that many fish because I built up enough beneficial bacteria to handle the load way before adding a single fish. Since then, knock wood, I have had not one issue at all and enjot the hobby much more now. Hope this makes sense to you. Good luck.


Steve

exactly, I did fishless cycle and added 26 fish at the weekend - all fish are doing well and looking great and more importantly...happy - fishless cycle is the way to go

 

[Chad]

Obviously a fish-in cycle does work, but for the various reasons mentioned I too prefer a fishless cycle. I use a piece of table shrimp as my ammonia source and it works very well for me. When it's done the fish go in slowly depending on the species.

 

[Ilyas]

No worries. The point is that I've never seen serious splits regarding the recommendations on stocking. Usually if there is divergence in the advice, its based on the size of the tank, or the number of individuals, not normally species.



Anyway, the SCIENCE is on the side of this forum. The LFS is trying to get MONEY and so selling a product, or a replacement fish, is their goal. They need to make sales. That's just the nature of the beast. They seem to be holding to the idea that the bacteria you want live in the water. And for the fish's sake, you need to keep the fish in water with lower levels of ammonia and nitrite. You can get away with slightly higher ammonia levels with a lower pH than 0. 0.25ppm isn't actually dangerous with a pH under 7.0. So, doing a water change at that time isn't necessary. And if you are at the end of the cycle, where the AOBs are building up, it will probably be gone soon enough. And if you have 0.25ppm ammonia in your tap water or chloramines in your tap, there's no value to a water change.



Out of curiosity, llyas, what was the question? You can PM me if you'd rather not hijack the thread.

I have a question concerning this thread. I am wondering if turning down the flow of an HOB would effect the cycling? I am feeling that if it is slower it is spending more time in contact with BB, but then again BB is in the substrate too? Hmmm....maybe a dumb question

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Generally, I think that the flow rate for the filter is pretty good for the entire process, if you turn it down too much, the bacteria won't have access to all the ammonia as there will be some "dead" zones where the water doesn't circulate. I'm a proponent of the "kiss" principle. And in this case, "if it ain't broke, don't break it."

 

[the_lock_man]

The guy at the pet shop said I might be losing the very bacteria I need to grow by doing the water changes so regularly

I thought this was the ultimate in bad advice.

have built up an immune system to deal with the unsafe levels in the tank according to the shop

And then I read this.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

To be fair lock_man, I've heard the "myth" about the water before. The 2nd one was brand new to me. I'd never heard of that before.

 

[the_lock_man]

To be fair lock_man, I've heard the "myth" about the water before. The 2nd one was brand new to me. I'd never heard of that before.

Yeah, I've seen it on the forum before, never had the pleasure of being told it in real life though.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I heard it once in a LFS. When the worker walked away, I gave a quick tutorial to the poor sap that was given that message.

 

[Ilyas]

I heard it once in a LFS. When the worker walked away, I gave a quick tutorial to the poor sap that was given that message.

I have done this a few times. Only I dont wait, I do it witht the worker there, that way they know we are not all stupid, and I am sure they will think twice about saying dumb stuff, when someone else is in the store at least.

 

[Chad]

Fortunately you guys are here to give good advice!

 

[Yanks15]

I heard it once in a LFS. When the worker walked away, I gave a quick tutorial to the poor sap that was given that message.

True story......... I was asked to leave a LFS because I waited until the clerk was done with her useless diatribe about adding fish right away and I convinced the people to fish-less cycle and they walked out without fish!! The girl flipped out on me and I just walked away smirking. Felt pretty good to tell you the truth!

 

[Ilyas]

I heard it once in a LFS. When the worker walked away, I gave a quick tutorial to the poor sap that was given that message.

True story......... I was asked to leave a LFS because I waited until the clerk was done with her useless diatribe about adding fish right away and I convinced the people to fish-less cycle and they walked out without fish!! The girl flipped out on me and I just walked away smirking. Felt pretty good to tell you the truth!

I totally agree with you. You did those fish a huge favor. That is how I feel when I do it. Someones feelings are less important than the life they obviously do not care about.

 

[mart70]

Ok I have done regular water changes and my readings over the last couple of days have been much improved - 0 ammonia, 0 - 0.25 nitrite but 40+ nitrate (taken this morning). I did a 50% water change as this is the only way to get the nitrate level done right? I just tested the water just now and I still have 40ppm nitrate level so now I'm back at the head scratching phase again.

Any ideas of what I should do next? The water change doesn't seem to have done much, I was expecting the nitrate level to drop considerably.