Crustyoneastcoast - 35 U.s. Gallon Fishless Cycle

[The Taffy Apple]

When i cycled my 30L tank, my PH would 'crash' on a 4/5 day basis (i live in a very soft water area, a KH/GH test kit would determine if you do also), adding bicarb of soda would bring it back up nicely to where it should be (as you do) but it would ALWAYS drop down again. therefore i ensured i tested my PH on a daily basis, without fail, and if it crashed i would do a partial water change and some bicarb of soda. Eventually, when the tank was ready for fish, i had to add crushed coral to the filter, but that wouldn't be needed unless you live in a soft water area.

<thumbs up> for you patience, it wont be long now!

Terry.

PS- a build up of undiluted bicarb of soda released into my tank a week or two after i added my first fish, it looked as if someone had poured a litre of milk into my tank, sending my ammonia through the roof and the loss of 2 fish... something to keep in mind

 

[CrustyOnEastCoast]

Day 46:
(12 hour testing)

Ph: 6.6 (another crash!) (Following this test I added 1tsp of baking soda to the tank)
Ammonia: 2ppm
Nitrite: 2ppm

So, no progress now in 7 days (but not losing anything either), and 2 PH crashes.

Every night I dose the equivalent of 4ppm ammonia. Every morning half of it (and half of the resulting nitrites) are processed.

I think at this point, if I can find the time, I might want to perform a pretty large water change ... see if that helps.

 

[CrustyOnEastCoast]

Day 50:

Ph is losing about .5 DH every 12 hours ... consistently. The water is looking nasty now from all the baking soda I keep adding to bring the PH back up. Also, still no improvement in ammonia/nitrite processing (but no loss either).

Tonight I performed a 75% water change.

I plan to do daily 10% water changes from here on out to keep nitrates in control, and thereby hopefully stabilize my PH.
My PH from the tap is about 8.0. Maybe the aquarium wants to keep it substantially lower? But I never had this problem in my 5 gallon tank.

Anyway, we will see how it goes.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Why does it look nasty from the baking soda? Is it dissolved or just falling to the bottom? I'm not sure that a 10% water change daily will do anything for you at all, to be honest. If you are considering that, why not just do a huge water change once a week?

 

[CrustyOnEastCoast]

The water is just cloudy. Maybe not from the baking soda at all.

My main concern is the nitrate concentration was well over 100ppm .. which is not realistic for how I will
keep the aquarium normally. I assume that is why my PH keeps dropping. My understanding is that a fishless cycle generates a lot more nitrites and nitrates than a fully stocked tank. So maybe the water changes (done 24 hours after the ammonia dose when everything has already been processed) will keep parameters more realistic as well as prevent the PH drop. After each small water change, I can dose ammonia again.

Also, I have this weird tan/brown stuff covering various parts of my sand substrate. Maybe just some sort of algae I am unfamiliar with. I guess to be expected.

Just trying to get my cycle moving since it has been stalled for a while now. My bacteria are no longer reproducing.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

That sounds about right. High nitrates will drop the pH, because a portion of the nitrates come in the form of nitric acid.

The brown stuff could be diatoms. If you can cover your tank and protect it from light, you won't have to worry about the algae for the remainder of the cycle.


What are your current ammonia/nitrite readings when you test? Can you post your most recent 7?

 

[CrustyOnEastCoast]

Currently I dose 4ppm worth of ammonia every evening. I test 12 hours later (in the morning).

Following are the results of all my 12 hour tests. There are currently 10 of them. Prior to this I was doing 24 hour tests while waiting for all my nitrites to get consumed from the daily 2ppm ammonia dosages

Sometimes it is hard to differentiate the differences in these colors (API Freshwater Master Test Kit)

Day 39
Ammonia: 0.75
Nitrites: 4.5
Water Change: 25% (ammonia gets properly dosed after water changes)

Day 40
Ammonia: 1.5
Nitrites: 5.0

Day 41
Ammonia: 0.25
Nitrites: 5.0

Day 42
Ammonia: 1.5
Nitrites: 0.75
Nitrates: 100
Ph: 6.4 (added 1 tsp baking soda, Ph up to 8.0)

Day 43
Ammonia: 1.0
Nitrites: 2.0
Ph: 7.8

Day 44
Ammonia: 0.25
Nitrites: 3.5
Ph: 8.0

Day 45
Ammonia: 2.0
Nitrites: 2.0

Day 46
Ammonia: 2.0
Nitrites: 2.0
Ph: 6.6 (added 1tsp baking soda)

Day 47
Ammonia: 2.0
Nitrites: 2.0
Nitrates: 110+
Ph: 7.2 (added 1/2 tsp baking soda in the morning. In the
evening the Ph was still 7.2. seems I dropped .5 in 12 hours) Performed
75% water change to get rid of nitrates.

Day 48 (Today!)
Ammonia: 2.0
Nitrites: 2.0
Water Change: 10%

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I assume that your ammonia level drops to zero by the end of the 24 hours, is that correct?

 

[CrustyOnEastCoast]

I assume that your ammonia level drops to zero by the end of the 24 hours, is that correct?

Yes, nitrites too. That has been true since day 36.

Today is day 49. So, no progress (or loss) in 13 days of cycling .. never missing a nightly dose of 4ppm worth of ammonia since day 36. I am adding 5 ml of a 10% solution of ammonium hydroxide (from Ace Hardware, no-rinse formula, no bubbles when shaken, same pure stuff others have used) which reliably measures out to be 4ppm of ammonia.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

So, then you are nearly cycled, but seem to be stalled just before the finish line, eh?


My recommendation is that if it continues to stick for another few days, do a 100% water change (make sure the filter media remains wet) and refill with like temp matched water. There has to be a reason for the sticking, but I am not certain what it is. Then I would drop the dose down from 4ppm to 3ppm until you get zeros at 12 hours. Then bump it back to 4ppm. These bacteria really do prefer lesser concentrations than we typically use in a fishless cycle.



Also, what are your stocking plans? Do you plan to add all the fish at once, or will there will a gradual build-up of fish shoal by shoal?

 

[CrustyOnEastCoast]

Exactly.

4 days ago I did a 75% water change, and since then have been doing 10% daily water changes to try to shake things up. No change.
More disturbing, I did a 24 hour test today, just to be sure everything is still getting processed. That showed the following:

Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrites: 0.5ppm

For all its advantages (and there are definitely many), the fishless cycle is a contrived environment. I told myself from the beginning (didn't post it here though) that I would give it a full 8 weeks. I will just about reach that mark this weekend.

So, since I am not fully cycled, that means I can't fully stock my tank. No matter, people are telling me I shouldn't fully stock it anyway.

My current thinking (slightly different from before) is to buy 8 emperor tetras this weekend, along with 3 of the 6 panda corydoras, and let the fish do their magic of moving the cycle along and perfecting the balance naturally from here on out. The idea being that I'll have enough healthy bacteria to handle that load, and moving forward I will just add the rest of the fish gradually, waiting about 2 weeks before adding new fish (assuming ammonia/nitrite readings stay fine), until I am done. Something like this:

8 emperor tetras, 3 panda corydoras - this weekend
3 more panda corydoras - two weeks later
3 male guppies - two weeks later
3 male guppies - two weeks later
2 Pearl Guoramis (male/female) - two weeks later

Thoughts?

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I completely understand and believe that you should be safe with that stocking plan. The only thing that I might suggest would be to rearrange the order.


I would suggest this:

8 emperor tetras - this weekend
3 male guppies - two weeks later
3 male guppies - two weeks later
6 panda corydoras - two weeks later
2 Pearl Gourami (M/F) - two weeks later


The thinking behind this plan is this: First, the initial stock will be the greatest challenge. So, starting smaller and starting with less sensitive fish would be the ideal choice. Pandas are actually a little more difficult than some other species of cory, partly because of their nature. They are a bit more timid than many other corys. Having them all go in at once is better than spreading them out over two weeks. Guppies are fine being alone, so putting them in 3 at a time won't really bother them. And with 8 emperors in already, they should be fine when they are added.

Adding all the pandas where I suggest here should be perfectly safe for a variety of reasons. The tank will be a bit more mature by this point. The stocking level is a bit higher by the time they are added, so the bacteria colony should be more capable of handling the bioload by that point. And there should be a bit of food scraps in the bottom that they will be able to find during their travels (always a benefit for them to be out and searching!). Do you have a sand substrate? They do prefer this, although gravel works. The key with cory barbels not being "worn down" has far more to do with water quality and proper maintenance of the tank than it does the substrate. However, they will get their "noses" deep into sand and sift the sand through their gills. Pretty cool to watch, actually.

Gouramis last. Largest and most aggressive fish ALWAYS get put in last. You shouldn't have any problems with the Pearls, but its always best to add them last.

 

[CrustyOnEastCoast]

Cool, thanks for the advice. I will do it as you have suggested.

Yes, I do have sand substrate.

 

[CrustyOnEastCoast]

I want to provide everyone an update.

So, last minute I find out that the Emperor Tetras are not available and no one knows when the supplier will have them available (could be weeks and weeks) .. but the store already ordered the panda corydoras.

So, I ended up buying 6 panda corydoras (very young fish, never seen them so small!), and 4 male guppies (2 of which were also very small).

So they all went in the tank 3 days ago. So far, everything is going swimmingly

All water parameters are remain great. All fish are eating and active, and the guppies are showing more color already since I bought them!

So, 8 or 10 days from now, I will finish stocking the male guppies (I will buy 2 more).

Then, a couple weeks after that, I will need to maybe figure out a different schooling fish to choose from if I can't get these emperor tetras. At that point, my existing load should be full grown, and maybe I could manage putting in 6 at once (though that would be a 50% stocking increase .. maybe risky).

 

[eaglesaquarium]

A 50% increase in bioload isn't that risky. Just don't feed the tank for a day when you add them. Less food = less ammonia. Then keep an eye on the levels as you normally would when introducing new fish. It shouldn't be a big deal. If you see a blip, recognize that it is only temporary and do a quick 50% (or whatever is needed) water change to bring the level down, and keep an eye on it. A second water change would be needed only in the rarest occasion, but it does happen. As long as you keep a close eye on things when adding that new shoal, you'll be fine and so will the fish.