Slow fishless cycle

[Essjay]

That's OK you've done the right thing according to TTA's method.

Now you are supposed to test every other day till ammonia is zero at one test then zero again at the next test 2 days later. Once you have the second zero, add enough ammonia for 1 ppm.

 

[Wills]

That's OK you've done the right thing according to TTA's method.

Now you are supposed to test every other day till ammonia is zero at one test then zero again at the next test 2 days later. Once you have the second zero, add enough ammonia for 1 ppm.

Phew! I'll test in the morning see where it is.

Then if the ammonia is at 0, leave it until I've retested 2 days later? Or should I add more after the first 0?

When I've done my other recent cycles I've just waited for ammonia to get to 0 and then add another dose.

 

[Essjay]

No, don't add any more ammonia until you've had two zero ammonia, two days apart. And then add enough ammonia for 1 ppm not 3..

The old method where ammonia was added every time it dropped to zero made so much nitrite that the cycle stalled. TwoTankAmin wrote the method on here to limit the amount of ammonia added to the tank so that there was enough to feed the bacteria but not enough to get nitrite to stall point.

 

[Wills]

No, don't add any more ammonia until you've had two zero ammonia, two days apart. And then add enough ammonia for 1 ppm not 3..

The old method where ammonia was added every time it dropped to zero made so much nitrite that the cycle stalled. TwoTankAmin wrote the method on here to limit the amount of ammonia added to the tank so that there was enough to feed the bacteria but not enough to get nitrite to stall point.

Excellent thank you

Interestingly that nitrite stall is exactly what Goop say is wrong with fishless cycling so we've come full circle and agreed haha!

 

[Essjay]

The Goop people are hobbyists rather than scientists and they are probably thinking of the "add ammonia every time it drops to zero" method. TwoTankAmin's method is only on this forum; we benefit from his extensive research



Edit to add - Stall point is 15 to 16 ppm nitrite (can't remember the exact figure). Every 1 ppm ammonia is turned into 2.7 ppm nitrite so it takes around 6 ppm of ammonia converted to nitrite to reach stall point. Once the ammonia eaters grow enough and while waiting for nitrite eaters to grow, all the ammonia added builds up the nitrite level. Since our test kits don't measure high enough, once the colour hits the highest level on the chart we can't know how much nitrite is in the water.

 

[AJ356]

Just the get the Goop, you are UK. It works brilliantly. I swear by it.

 

[KANGS]

Hi Will,
Nitrite（NO2-) over 2ppm is not good. I don't know what your filteration is.
my advices are

Immediately change 1/4 of the water in the fish tank

Reduce daily feeding, or reduce fish

Change your filtration system and change water pump if it is not enough for your tank to increase the number of filtrations per hour.

I DIY filter for tank .The filtration separate wet and dry,and the effect is better than most of the filter cartridge which sold in market. I suggest you use similar filtration.It hang up outside of the tank.

 

[Essjay]

This is a fishless cycle using ammonia; there are no fish in the tank. Using this method, nitrite is supposed to go up.

 

[Wills]

Just the get the Goop, you are UK. It works brilliantly. I swear by it.

I think I eventually will - just with a couple of life things and work at the moment I can't get to the stores I want to get the fish I want so no rush with this process right now. I am a bit set in my ways - undoubtably I can see a lot of people using it with good success but then the proper scientists here (like genuine phds and profs) are sceptical which makes me doubt it...

Hi Will,
Nitrite（NO2-) over 2ppm is not good. I don't know what your filteration is.
my advices are

Immediately change 1/4 of the water in the fish tank

Reduce daily feeding, or reduce fish

Change your filtration system and change water pump if it is not enough for your tank to increase the number of filtrations per hour.

I DIY filter for tank .The filtration separate wet and dry,and the effect is better than most of the filter cartridge which sold in market. I suggest you use similar filtration.It hang up outside of the tank.

Thanks for advice but as mentioned this is a fishless cycle to help grow filter bacteria before I add fish. Cool looking DIY filter though

This is a fishless cycle using ammonia; there are no fish in the tank. Using this method, nitrite is supposed to go up.

Thanks tested this morning and between 1 and 2ppm ammonia and 2ppm nitrite - nitrite seems lower than the other day but taken 2 days to get ammonia to between 1 and 2 so getting there but not quite!

 

[AJ356]

I think I eventually will - just with a couple of life things and work at the moment I can't get to the stores I want to get the fish I want so no rush with this process right now. I am a bit set in my ways - undoubtably I can see a lot of people using it with good success but then the proper scientists here (like genuine phds and profs) are sceptical which makes me doubt it...

Of course, you can have it as an option. I got into the Goop from an experimental perspective. I didn't have a tank to cycle the last few times I used it! I have lots of spare tanks, dry filter sponge and spare internal filters. I was meticulous. I was able to get from 2ppm ammonia to 0ppm ammonia (within 24 hours) in a total time of 86-90 hours cycling with Goop. Fishless. Using pure ammonia. No plants. Nothing but empty tank, ammonia, water, filter, Goop.

Temp was about 78 to 80 F I think.

 

[Essjay]

Given the way that Goop is prepared it may well be the genuine article. But I suspect the makers are not very knowledgeable, hobbyists rather than scientists, as they say it contains the wrong species of nitrite eaters and it shouldn't be used for a fishless cycle.
I suspect they have read the old literature concerning the nitrite eaters and give that species on their website rather that the species we now know grows in aquariums.
Their FAQs state (my bold) "We understand that many aquarists like to cycle their tank with a single daily dose of ammonia." This would result in nitrite so high that the cycle would stall and the method on here does not say to add ammonia daily. If TwoTankAmin's method is followed, nitrite will never get high enough to stall the cycle.

 

[Wills]

Of course, you can have it as an option. I got into the Goop from an experimental perspective. I didn't have a tank to cycle the last few times I used it! I have lots of spare tanks, dry filter sponge and spare internal filters. I was meticulous. I was able to get from 2ppm ammonia to 0ppm ammonia (within 24 hours) in a total time of 86-90 hours cycling with Goop. Fishless. Using pure ammonia. No plants. Nothing but empty tank, ammonia, water, filter, Goop.

Temp was about 78 to 80 F I think.

That is really interesting! I've pondered doing an experiment with it but lack of time.

I'm going to keep up with my fishless cycle for now but when I get the chance to get to the place that has my cichlids I'll get some Goop

 

[Wills]

Given the way that Goop is prepared it may well be the genuine article. But I suspect the makers are not very knowledgeable, hobbyists rather than scientists, as they say it contains the wrong species of nitrite eaters and it shouldn't be used for a fishless cycle.
I suspect they have read the old literature concerning the nitrite eaters and give that species on their website rather that the species we now know grows in aquariums.
Their FAQs state (my bold) "We understand that many aquarists like to cycle their tank with a single daily dose of ammonia." This would result in nitrite so high that the cycle would stall and the method on here does not say to add ammonia daily. If TwoTankAmin's method is followed, nitrite will never get high enough to stall the cycle.

I think you are right but I don't see a problem with it at all - if it works and they've worked out a way of doing it fair enough.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

A lot of exoerts who have no clue. It is starting to get old.

The most important bacteria in the cycle are the Nitrospira. Initially they were though to be the ones that process the nitrite to nitrate. it turns out this was not quite correct, it was subsequently discovered that Nitrospira are the holy grail of the proces because they are able to process ammonia straight through to nitrate.

They colonize a tank later than the pure ammonia ones which do create nitrite. There is virtually little of no Nitrobacteria in our tanks. They need higher levels of nitrite to thrive.

The bacteria in different settings are not limited to a single strain to perform a par of the cycle. What is actually going on is the strain that dominates and thrives does so based on the levels of ammonia or nitrite. But this does not mean that the bacteria which perform the same function, but in a greatly different concentration level, are 100% absent. There will be a few cells lurking.

So we may have a few Nitrobacteria cells in our tanks dominated by Nitrospira. Should things change and the nitrite levels shoot way up, the Nitrobacteria will start to multiply as the Nitrospira are dying back, The same is the case in waste water treatment where the Nitrobacter dominate. There will still be Nitrospira lurking and even working at times. The main difference between watse water treatment and the ammonia and nitrite in our tanks is one of steady production. Our established tanks tend to create a fairly constant level of ammonia. They do so in lower concentrations all day and night.

On the other hand waste water has fluctuating levels of ammonia and nitrate. AT times they are quite high and at other times they drop way down. And then they get a big influx again. What the science discovered is this sort of pulsing of ammonia actually made the bacteria more efficient when it had been thought it would be the opposite. As a result, when I am holding a completed cycle in either my bio-farm or an individual tank because I cannot move fish in yet, I do not dose ammonia every day, I add it every 2 or 3 days.

Bear in mind that nature works whether we believe it or not. It is really a case of, "If you build it, he (bacteria) will come." Ammonia in water will result in cycling. I will happen in our tanks whether we want it to or not. How it all works varies. It can be a very slow process or it can be one that can be made fish safe rapidly. There are basically two things which determine the speed. How much bacteria is present at the outset and then how much ammonia is being created by any means. The amount of ammonia being added and the timing of the additions will govern the time needed to establish a cycle or if the attempt is doomed to fail.

Plants change things. But given the potential variety and how many one has, it is hard to create the same sort of controlled process one has in a fishless cycle with no plants.

 

[Wills]

A lot of exoerts who have no clue. It is starting to get old.

The most important bacteria in the cycle are the Nitrospira. Initially they were though to be the ones that process the nitrite to nitrate. it turns out this was not quite correct, it was subsequently discovered that Nitrospira are the holy grail of the proces because they are able to process ammonia straight through to nitrate.

They colonize a tank later than the pure ammonia ones which do create nitrite. There is virtually little of no Nitrobacteria in our tanks. They need higher levels of nitrite to thrive.

The bacteria in different settings are not limited to a single strain to perform a par of the cycle. What is actually going on is the strain that dominates and thrives does so based on the levels of ammonia or nitrite. But this does not mean that the bacteria which perform the same function, but in a greatly different concentration level, are 100% absent. There will be a few cells lurking.

So we may have a few Nitrobacteria cells in our tanks dominated by Nitrospira. Should things change and the nitrite levels shoot way up, the Nitrobacteria will start to multiply as the Nitrospira are dying back, The same is the case in waste water treatment where the Nitrobacter dominate. There will still be Nitrospira lurking and even working at times. The main difference between watse water treatment and the ammonia and nitrite in our tanks is one of steady production. Our established tanks tend to create a fairly constant level of ammonia. They do so in lower concentrations all day and night.

On the other hand waste water has fluctuating levels of ammonia and nitrate. AT times they are quite high and at other times they drop way down. And then they get a big influx again. What the science discovered is this sort of pulsing of ammonia actually made the bacteria more efficient when it had been thought it would be the opposite. As a result, when I am holding a completed cycle in either my bio-farm or an individual tank because I cannot move fish in yet, I do not dose ammonia every day, I add it every 2 or 3 days.

Bear in mind that nature works whether we believe it or not. It is really a case of, "If you build it, he (bacteria) will come." Ammonia in water will result in cycling. I will happen in our tanks whether we want it to or not. How it all works varies. It can be a very slow process or it can be one that can be made fish safe rapidly. There are basically two things which determine the speed. How much bacteria is present at the outset and then how much ammonia is being created by any means. The amount of ammonia being added and the timing of the additions will govern the time needed to establish a cycle or if the attempt is doomed to fail.

Plants change things. But given the potential variety and how many one has, it is hard to create the same sort of controlled process one has in a fishless cycle with no plants.

Totally get and respect what you are saying but with the Goop product in particular there are dozens if not hundreds of reports in the UK of it just simply working - in the same way transferring mature media works. You order it from their site and you get same or next day delivery and instructions to use it immediately and as AJ356 has experimented with, it gets enough bacteria into the filter in a way other products have not historically.