Breeders, looking for conformation/discussion
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ral
Fish Herder
I don't think she is or I hope not, but when wuv said "But my point is, who cares? What are we going by,the standard? The standard reflects the perfect betta,and that's hard to come by. I say breed your fish and love your fry and your hobby" I really don't know what she meant.
People have been breeding betta's for a long time. We have systematic efforts, like that of Jim Sonnier to breed gaint long fins. Than we also have those who think they can breed a new strain by crossing X and Y. I have even seen long explanantions on how to breed such rare fish like doubletails. The wheel can still be improve, but with genetic tables and many experiances posted by other breeders, we shoudl not try to completely reinvent the wheel.
People have been breeding betta's for a long time. We have systematic efforts, like that of Jim Sonnier to breed gaint long fins. Than we also have those who think they can breed a new strain by crossing X and Y. I have even seen long explanantions on how to breed such rare fish like doubletails. The wheel can still be improve, but with genetic tables and many experiances posted by other breeders, we shoudl not try to completely reinvent the wheel.
ral
Fish Herder
Why not? Well I thought we were all against the betta-in-a-cup.
Have to agree about the excessive in-breeding. Notice a lot of show fish look smaller than their "wilder" counterparts, expecially the Opaque ones. But isn't the excessive in breeding the result of someone trying to breed the perfrect fish though a single line?
We have a forum. We can share experiances. If A, B and C already tried to cross X and Y and got poor results maybe D to Z should try something else.
Have to agree about the excessive in-breeding. Notice a lot of show fish look smaller than their "wilder" counterparts, expecially the Opaque ones. But isn't the excessive in breeding the result of someone trying to breed the perfrect fish though a single line?
We have a forum. We can share experiances. If A, B and C already tried to cross X and Y and got poor results maybe D to Z should try something else.
No kiddingcation said:
Thanks for the heads up Ral, from someone who has spent 1,000's of dollars in stock I find that hard to not be offensive. To imply that I'm condoning people to breed lfs stock is ridiculous. You're also speaking to someone who has spent hundreds and hundreds ,and gone out of her way to properly house dozens & dozens of rescued veiltails in little 1 gallon homes with plants of their very own. Do you honestly believe I would encourage someone to throw their fish into that market? Absolutely insulting.
What I'm saying is don't be scared to try new things. What makes a fish desirable,aside from branching and a symmetric appearance? Usually the name of the breeder
It's really all very shallow,but to be truthful you are nothing if you are not known. And being known makes your fish more desirable.Simple as that. People become well known for doing something new.
Do you think most of the newer lines came out perfect the first time? What happened to the fish that were the beginning of copper? Probably sold at a lfs or culled,the rest shown and sold at auction or over the net. That's all part of it. So you're saying it's best to just buy sibling pairs and never step out of line or try anything new? All because someone with a name said you shouldn't? Don't be a sheep. I never said to mix a strong line with a poor one. To imply any plakat would mess up a line (which is what you're saying,right?) is a rather bold statement.
So,let's say you mix a HM plakat with a HM and you get nice fry, you do an F2 and they're getting better. You do an F3 and you suddenly have an amazing fish with spectacular finnage that doesn't droop with age. I don't see a problem with that. If you're serious about breeding a line than you deal with the results that get you there the way you see fit.
Well, ral, none of my fish are destined for a cup. If I remember correctly, neither are wuv's.I know they will all have loving homes. I think a couple of generations of "less-than-perfect", yet STILL much better then the "betta in a cup" bettas, is worth it for further exploration of betta genetics, and for strengthening and broadening the gene pool.
And although your idea of us all sharing information and learning from each other is a good one, the fact of the matter is many people don't, or won't, listen. If they did, none of our members would breed a veil to another veil and say it's "just for practice". In my opinion, it is these actions that contribute to the betta-in-a-cup practice.
And although your idea of us all sharing information and learning from each other is a good one, the fact of the matter is many people don't, or won't, listen. If they did, none of our members would breed a veil to another veil and say it's "just for practice". In my opinion, it is these actions that contribute to the betta-in-a-cup practice.
ral
Fish Herder
I am not saying that is what you do wuv. I am worried about how it might be interpreted by readers. I do know that you are a responsible breeder and have made the investment necessary to carry out a ambitious program.
While I am now going off topic... A stand against culling (which seems to be the majoirty in this forum), a stand against the betta-in-a-cup and trying to develop new lines is something which cannot all be acheived together.
Err... no. Mixing Plakat with Halfmoon and Plakat with Crowntail is something done regularly in Thailand now to improve the HM and CT lines (D'Chia please confirm). Am surprised though the crossing a Plakat and longfin can result in veils.... but he is the master.
I know you would not do this, but some readers might interpret initial statement as "breed what you got, if you love them its okay."
While I am now going off topic... A stand against culling (which seems to be the majoirty in this forum), a stand against the betta-in-a-cup and trying to develop new lines is something which cannot all be acheived together.
Err... no. Mixing Plakat with Halfmoon and Plakat with Crowntail is something done regularly in Thailand now to improve the HM and CT lines (D'Chia please confirm). Am surprised though the crossing a Plakat and longfin can result in veils.... but he is the master.
I know you would not do this, but some readers might interpret initial statement as "breed what you got, if you love them its okay."
To be honest, breeding has become so popular that soon enough we will start seeing amazing bettas at the lfs for dirt cheap. Give it a few yearscation said:
The betta in a cup industry sickens me- be it veils or fancier- and I've discussed a drip system with my lfs. If I do decide to start selling my fish there they have agreed that that would be the only method.
No,but I am saying breed selectively and aim for the sky.Try new things,but don't treat your fry as if they're disposable when they don't come out to your liking!
It's true. And if too many swing the other way to fancies, soon people will all be clamoring for veils again...wuvmybetta said:To be honest, breeding has become so popular that soon enough we will start seeing amazing bettas at the lfs for dirt cheap. Give it a few years
So, so much better. I'm lucky - my lfs has a drip system already. They've got space for over 100 bettas, and the spaces are always at least half empty.
ral
Fish Herder
I guess is the situation here is that fancier betta's are already "dirth cheap". Suoer Delta's can be had for less than $4, and fully developed CT's for a tad more than $2.
In stark contrast, a really good CT will go here for the same price they sell in Singapore, a tad less than $40. There is a cost to breeding these show grade CT's.
The VT market here is actually shrinking. CT culls have started to come in by the thousand. Female CT's are bought wholesale at $9 to a 100. Male roundtails, combtails and the like are doubel the price.
If we went to biggest local fish market here you will find 500++ betta's on any given day (male and female) living in the worst conditions. They break even if they sell one in three, so they don't feed them and they dont change the water in the tiny cups. A betta can live in a cup without a water change or feeding for 7 days, and the next delivery is seven days away. If they sell half what they got and the other half dies, they are happy campers.
My first Betta was bought in that condition. Thorn fins and discolored (he is not longer white now). Owner just put him in a back shelf (where they keep filters). I guess he did not want an eyesore in the front. Last time I went to the same shop, I saw a betta with 90% fin loss due to finrot.
Jim gives them to his students, some of you will make special arrangements with petshops. If Betta's are bred left and right, all that will happen is that the fish will get cheaper and cheaper. LFS owners don't have much incentive to take care of cheap fish well.
In stark contrast, a really good CT will go here for the same price they sell in Singapore, a tad less than $40. There is a cost to breeding these show grade CT's.
The VT market here is actually shrinking. CT culls have started to come in by the thousand. Female CT's are bought wholesale at $9 to a 100. Male roundtails, combtails and the like are doubel the price.
If we went to biggest local fish market here you will find 500++ betta's on any given day (male and female) living in the worst conditions. They break even if they sell one in three, so they don't feed them and they dont change the water in the tiny cups. A betta can live in a cup without a water change or feeding for 7 days, and the next delivery is seven days away. If they sell half what they got and the other half dies, they are happy campers.
My first Betta was bought in that condition. Thorn fins and discolored (he is not longer white now). Owner just put him in a back shelf (where they keep filters). I guess he did not want an eyesore in the front. Last time I went to the same shop, I saw a betta with 90% fin loss due to finrot.
Jim gives them to his students, some of you will make special arrangements with petshops. If Betta's are bred left and right, all that will happen is that the fish will get cheaper and cheaper. LFS owners don't have much incentive to take care of cheap fish well.
Free one's eitherral said:
I've been to hell and back with my lfs and they know my stance on the matter. I gave them one of my most beautiful little show plakats last year and they let him rot away while I stood there unsure of how to deal with the situation and dropping hints that it was killing me to see him like that. Afterwards I disowned them and once again became "just a customer,nothing more". I'm just now starting to come around again but I'm still too scared to let my fish go there. The offer to sell my fish is still on the table, I think I'd rather not profit and have them here with me I think things are just different here, ral. In my city, there are not a ton of breeders, and my lfs would prefer nicer fish to the ones they have now. I can provide better fish, and I am comfortable with them going into a barracks system at a fish store I feel comfortable with.Most of the large, chain pet stores (and walmart) will not buy from local breeders.
The main power with the whole "betta-in-a-cup" thing here in the US lies with the consumer. I refuse to buy fish in poor conditions. I complain when I see a sick fish. I DON'T BUY BETTAS from stores that allow their fish to live in bad conditions - and I tell them why.
I'll tell you this, ral - if no responsible pet owner bought a betta in poor conditions, not even to "save" them, and told the store why they were taking their business elsewhere, the problem, at least here in US, would come close to completely going away.
Money talks.
The main power with the whole "betta-in-a-cup" thing here in the US lies with the consumer. I refuse to buy fish in poor conditions. I complain when I see a sick fish. I DON'T BUY BETTAS from stores that allow their fish to live in bad conditions - and I tell them why.
I'll tell you this, ral - if no responsible pet owner bought a betta in poor conditions, not even to "save" them, and told the store why they were taking their business elsewhere, the problem, at least here in US, would come close to completely going away.
Money talks.
Seems like it would. I've had my finger in the manager of Wal-Marts face as I walked away from a basket full of groceries screaming all the way out about how awful they are and I'd take my business elsewhere,but that I'd be back to check on the fish.cation said:
It was just a band-aid.They straightened up for a week or so. I blame the entire thing on management...always. I know how long it takes to do water changes,it's just taking the time to do them. If a good manager insists that they're done,there's no problem. Any employee can squeeze that in every day,it's just laziness and lack of management that prevents them from doing so.
It's the American way
Apparently the way in the Philippines as well... 
ral
Fish Herder
True cation. Very true. Used to do a lot of "rescues". Would buy betta's from shops the treated like dirth, kept them for a bit. Got them a new tank, some declorinzer a packet of food and would ship them off to a interested friend. I think the number of rescued fish I have transfered exceeds the number I own.
Than I would path myself on the back for a succesfull rescue, rehab and transfer. Got one betta out of a cup, and the LFS owner probably replaced it with two
Than I would path myself on the back for a succesfull rescue, rehab and transfer. Got one betta out of a cup, and the LFS owner probably replaced it with two
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