Breeders, looking for conformation/discussion

[cation]

No, it wasn't. Here's the exact exchange, word for word...

"What happens if you do cross a traditional type plakat into your HM lines? What would you get, and could you reach a hm type finnage after working the line?"

The answer...

"You'll get all longfin VT in the F1 (unless the longfin HM carries plakat, then you will get some plakats as well). It is possible to bring the VT finnage to HM, but it will take a LOT of time and work. You can do it quicker if you start outcrossing to a HM family (like ****** did with her orange/black). But just doing selective sibling crosses....whew...I wouldn't want to do it, let's just say that!"


So there it is. Make of it what you will.

 

[yeeviabetta]

No, it wasn't. Here's the exact exchange, word for word...

"What happens if you do cross a traditional type plakat into your HM lines? What would you get, and could you reach a hm type finnage after working the line?"

The answer...

"You'll get all longfin VT in the F1 (unless the longfin HM carries plakat, then you will get some plakats as well). It is possible to bring the VT finnage to HM, but it will take a LOT of time and work. You can do it quicker if you start outcrossing to a HM family (like ****** did with her orange/black). But just doing selective sibling crosses....whew...I wouldn't want to do it, let's just say that!"


So there it is. Make of it what you will.

Uha. Then this is really about hm cross with plakat. I don't think this person even know what is a delta at all. LOL Besides, he didn't even do the experienment and dare to tell you that. Look at what I found in his sentences.

"You'll get all longfin VT in the F1 (unless the longfin HM carries plakat, then you will get some plakats as well). It is possible to bring the VT finnage to HM, but it will take a LOT of time and work. You can do it quicker if you start outcrossing to a HM family (like ****** did with her orange/black). But just doing selective sibling crosses....whew...I wouldn't want to do it, let's just say that!"

He wouldn't want to do it. Duh! LOL

OK. How about lets widden the topics about hm and plakat. Now is about what do you think a male halfmoon cross with a female plakat? Are they any different if the other side around like female is halfmoon and male is plakat? Are the outcome more to plakat but with more rays in short tail?

 

[Sorrell]

I just can't even get over this Excuse my extreme example but it would be like a black person marrying a white person and having someone tell them they'll have asian children

 

[Bettaman]

what a load of cobblers.......post this in the other forum for me ..........

or better still give me the link......

 

[yeeviabetta]

I just can't even get over this Excuse my extreme example but it would be like a black person marrying a white person and having someone tell them they'll have asian children

hahahahahaha You make my day!!! hahahahahaha

Wait!!! it works!!!! Sorrell. hahahaha LOL
Can put the asian fertilized eggs into the caucasian or black female womb!!!! SEE!!! And even future STEM CELL!! hahahahahaha

 

[cation]

Besides, he didn't even do the experienment and dare to tell you that.

Just to clear things up, I wasn't involved in the discussion - I just read it from the sidelines on another forum, I didn't ask the question.


And I would be shocked if this person didn't know what a delta was - it was either a mistake, or who knows what. There is simply no way they don't know that.


The whole thing has me stymied. Simply too weird.

 

[ral]

I will digress a bit but the link you provided in your first post is interesint cation. Looks like Jim Sonnier is trying to breed giant or half giant long fins.

From what I have seen in the local shops, breeding CT's results in CT's, combtails and "roundtails", but no VT's.

A breeder I converse with via email tells me breeding HM geno's gives you Delta's, Super Delta's and HM's. Again no VT's.

I would assume that putting a Plakat in the mix, would give you Plakats with more interesting finnage or HM or Delta's with shorter finnage. The typical Plakat finnage looks nothing like a VT.

I really like HM's or SD's with moderate size as opposed to large finnage. Can't wait to see how your grow up.

 

[cation]

Ral -

You're right, he's working on long-finned Giants. He has already bred Giant Plakats, and is using that genepool to develop longfin Giants, from what I understand (mad props to Sorrell, who helped me pull my head outta my butt on that one! ). The spawn I linked to was the F1, he won't get anything but half-Giants out of it. He discovered with the Giant plakats that the giant mutation appears to be incompletely dominant. So he should be able to spawn giant long-fins from the F1.

*Genetics note: Many of the traits we discuss are simple dominant/recessive, ie two alleles for each gene. Lets say T for long tail (dominant), t for short tail (recessive). Bettas with short tails will all be tt. Bettas with long tails can be TT or Tt - in the case of the heterozygote (Tt), the dominant gene completely masks the recessive. By this I mean the Tt fish will also have a long tail, not an "in-between" medium length tail. Incomplete dominance means that you do have that medium, as appears to be the case with the Giant gene. Let's say G is Giant, and g is regular sized. A GG fish will be a Giant, a Gg fish will be an "in-between" or "Half-Giant", and a gg will be a regularly sized fish. Interesting, no?

I would assume that putting a Plakat in the mix, would give you Plakats with more interesting finnage or HM or Delta's with shorter finnage. The typical Plakat finnage looks nothing like a VT.

Not quite. In the F1 of a longtail/plakat cross, you will get all long-tails, there is no "in-between" genetically. In the F2, you will get 25% homozygous longfin fish, 50% heterozygous longfin fish, and 25% plakats (statistically - the numbers will vary for each spawn, but those Mendel's accepted probabilities).

 

[cation]

As usual, I totally killed a thread with genetics. Sorry guys, maybe I should keep that stuff on the down low.

 

[Joby]

I found it interesting Cation but as I know next to nothing about the different tail types i.e. had a male plakat in with my females, then I was just an observer

 

[cation]

Cool, Joby I'm glad you enjoyed it!

It seems to happen on occasion...I'll write something too science-y and everybody posting on the thread gets bored.

 

[ral]

Not quite. In the F1 of a longtail/plakat cross, you will get all long-tails, there is no "in-between" genetically. In the F2, you will get 25% homozygous longfin fish, 50% heterozygous longfin fish, and 25% plakats (statistically - the numbers will vary for each spawn, but those Mendel's accepted probabilities).

I am not getting it all yet but I am starting to get the idea. Thanks Cation. This is a very enlightening thread.

 

[Texaswoman]

Okay, gone for the weekend and found out about this post. I'm of course interested because I asked this question. Wait, that was the answer I got. NO, NO, NO. Now, all this confusion. That answer from a prodominant breeder, and now, others responding with speculation and debate. Help. I did this and I thought I wouldn't get veiltails. I almost culled the spawn! Glad I didn't. Cation, lets talk... Anybody want to know anything. I posted asking about betta critique, and mentioned breeding the tradtiontional plakat to a hm female. Now, the only reason I would think they would have undermined me is because I have a nice red marble bf that everybody wants if they like red marbles. She is also breeding red marbles, so maybe she doens't want me to compete against her, or her cha-ching prices. Here is the male. Oh la la

 

[cation]

Now, the only reason I would think they would have undermined me is because I have a nice red marble bf that everybody wants if they like red marbles. She is also breeding red marbles, so maybe she doens't want me to compete against her, or her cha-ching prices. Here is the male. Oh la la

I thought that was you over there TW, but I figured if you wanted people to know, you'd tell 'em.

That is exactly the reason Steph and I talked about on the phone yesterday. We were talking about whether or not it was possible that she didn't know what she was talking about, and that's difficult to believe. But why else would she give you that info?

Undermining your breeding program was the only other idea we could come up with. Not very befitting her place in the betta world, if you ask me.

Your fish is beautiful. As you can tell from the convo here, it's probably a good thing you didn't cull the fry. Take a look at Jim Sonnier's fish in the link I posted - they're certainly not veil tails, and came from a plakat and HM.

 

[Sorrell]

Yup, when miss cation and myself were talking yesterday I felt bad considering scandelous possibilities, but I honestly cannot even fathom where she would get that from, so that was my suggestion...you have a really nice male there, maybe a little competition is scary for some