A ? About Adding Fish That Were Shipped To The Tank
- Thread starter ~heidi~
- Start date
tcamos said:
Nevermind fish, I wish I'd thought of that sort of two-layered setup when I got my longspine urchin. Moving an angry ball of possibly venomous 8" spikes out of a bucket was just oodles of fun lol. A strainer in a bucket would have been infinitely easier and safer. That's definitely something I'll be keeping in mind for the future.
TwoTankAmin
Fish Connoisseur
Eagle- my comment was not meant as an insult. Sorry, if I offended anybody.
I did not realize this, but the bag buddies are not available any more, so if your water is blue these days, it is likely from methylene blue which will add O. Many shippers now use a product called Ship Shape which is a powder. I have tried it but only once and never again. I believe it doesn't contain the sedative that bag buddies did. But it doesn't discolor the water. Now if you are willing to trust any blue bag water to be ammonia free just because its blue, that is your choice. But not knowing how much of what has been added to a bag, I would be not be inclined to do so myself, which is my choice.
Also, I know my reports are anecdotal, but I was asked a direct question about what fish I had done this with in post # 10 by RCA:
I never answered the last part. No, I have never lost fish due to that method. I have had fish close to death on arrival fail to make it but all the rest did fine. But no amount of acclimation would have helped them in any case. However, I have lost fish like that doing a more involved acclimation. i actually acclimated a bag of fish for close to 45 hours. But it was because the bag water was liquid rock and my water was the opposite. It took that long and water changes to get them even close.
As for the kick the bucket trick I can link you to a thread about it from AquaBid's forum archive from 2007. The thread is started by lotsoffish aka Pete M from Upstate NY who may be the biggest seller on the auction site over the years. I have met him, I have bought fish from him. He has been in the business for a long long time. The last post in the thread is by fishnut2 aka Rich S. from Chicago. He has been a top level cory breeder, among other things. I bought my first pandas from him, I have met him as well. He regularly exchanges stuff with the big international names in corydom. I am stating this so you know these two gents should know their stuff. Both of them kick the bucket for corys:
But I stand by my original post where I stated that the most common cause of damage and/or death to fish which have been shipped in is from ammonia. And that acclimating can be the cause.
r.w.- you just answered eagles last question with the answer when you asked me:
" I would wonder, though, and maybe you could answer this for me, if this is such a problem in acidic tanks. Increasing the pH towards 6.5 or higher, would indeed lead to a significant increase in ammonia to ammonium in the bag, especially as temperature rises. But in a tank with a pH lower than 6.5, would this matter?"
And the answer is no, if you are adding acid water to the bag it should not make ammonia more toxic. Raising the pH from 5 to 6.5 will not make more of the toxic form ammonia, there should be none at both levels. (This is not a suggestion ever to raise the pH by that amount with fish before folks freak.) But the question I would then ask is, how would you know your 6.5 pH water is higher, lower or equal to the bag water? And the answer is you test when possible. You get as much information as you can and then you decide what to do rather than trying to have a one method fits all system. But I know that plop and drop can work to the extent I have used it. I know there are times it is the best option. When the bag water is nasty, get the fish out ASAP, if there are dead fish in with live ones, get the live ones out ASAP. These are all the bad sort of situations where plop and drop can be the preferred method. But there are also good ones as well.
If you know the bag and tank water parameters are close to each other and this includes the temp., acclimation may be redundant. So you can just add the fish directly with nothing else needed. And again the only way to know this is to test. Eagle- I hope I have answered your question re why test if one is going to plop and drop.
I did not realize this, but the bag buddies are not available any more, so if your water is blue these days, it is likely from methylene blue which will add O. Many shippers now use a product called Ship Shape which is a powder. I have tried it but only once and never again. I believe it doesn't contain the sedative that bag buddies did. But it doesn't discolor the water. Now if you are willing to trust any blue bag water to be ammonia free just because its blue, that is your choice. But not knowing how much of what has been added to a bag, I would be not be inclined to do so myself, which is my choice.
Also, I know my reports are anecdotal, but I was asked a direct question about what fish I had done this with in post # 10 by RCA:
I never answered the last part. No, I have never lost fish due to that method. I have had fish close to death on arrival fail to make it but all the rest did fine. But no amount of acclimation would have helped them in any case. However, I have lost fish like that doing a more involved acclimation. i actually acclimated a bag of fish for close to 45 hours. But it was because the bag water was liquid rock and my water was the opposite. It took that long and water changes to get them even close.
As for the kick the bucket trick I can link you to a thread about it from AquaBid's forum archive from 2007. The thread is started by lotsoffish aka Pete M from Upstate NY who may be the biggest seller on the auction site over the years. I have met him, I have bought fish from him. He has been in the business for a long long time. The last post in the thread is by fishnut2 aka Rich S. from Chicago. He has been a top level cory breeder, among other things. I bought my first pandas from him, I have met him as well. He regularly exchanges stuff with the big international names in corydom. I am stating this so you know these two gents should know their stuff. Both of them kick the bucket for corys:
I can confirm how bad sterbai can be when not purged this way.
But I stand by my original post where I stated that the most common cause of damage and/or death to fish which have been shipped in is from ammonia. And that acclimating can be the cause.
r.w.- you just answered eagles last question with the answer when you asked me:
" I would wonder, though, and maybe you could answer this for me, if this is such a problem in acidic tanks. Increasing the pH towards 6.5 or higher, would indeed lead to a significant increase in ammonia to ammonium in the bag, especially as temperature rises. But in a tank with a pH lower than 6.5, would this matter?"
And the answer is no, if you are adding acid water to the bag it should not make ammonia more toxic. Raising the pH from 5 to 6.5 will not make more of the toxic form ammonia, there should be none at both levels. (This is not a suggestion ever to raise the pH by that amount with fish before folks freak.) But the question I would then ask is, how would you know your 6.5 pH water is higher, lower or equal to the bag water? And the answer is you test when possible. You get as much information as you can and then you decide what to do rather than trying to have a one method fits all system. But I know that plop and drop can work to the extent I have used it. I know there are times it is the best option. When the bag water is nasty, get the fish out ASAP, if there are dead fish in with live ones, get the live ones out ASAP. These are all the bad sort of situations where plop and drop can be the preferred method. But there are also good ones as well.
If you know the bag and tank water parameters are close to each other and this includes the temp., acclimation may be redundant. So you can just add the fish directly with nothing else needed. And again the only way to know this is to test. Eagle- I hope I have answered your question re why test if one is going to plop and drop.
TwoTankAmin
Fish Connoisseur
dang- I thought I was having deja vu all over again http
/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/391494-do-we-as-hobbyists-overcomplicate-things/ posted in march 2012
/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/391494-do-we-as-hobbyists-overcomplicate-things/ posted in march 2012
Thanks TwoTankAmin for your information, most informative and I will be looking at the link when I have a bit more time.
In respect to the box...
Two things concern me with it:
In respect to the box...
tcamos said:
tcamos said:
eaglesaquarium said:
Mamashack said:RCA:
What a natty bit of kit! How much does it cost and where can we get it in the UK? lolWas this the video? Now I must
Unless eagles can rustle up an ingredients lists and method for the DIY recipe??? Fancy talking us through it, eagles?? Pretty please??? <Bats eyelashes>
Donya said:
Two things concern me with it:
- I would prefer it hung on the edge of the aquarium rather than with suckers - one for you eagle when you are designing one
- In respect to the fish being in no water for a limited time, is there a risk with it being a hard surface that the fish may damage itself?
RCA:
I have to say I've always done the 20 mins temperature acclimation with lights out and then the plop and drop including transport water with lights out for a further hour - hold my hand up - hadn't realised there was another way to do it tbh!
Have watched the video and it does state onscreen that ammonia-removing agents could be added at the same time as the fish and transport water. Is that the only concern about adding transport water to the tank itself? That's a genuine question - I really don't know what else would be a worry as the dilution, say of pH or KH would probably quite considerable unless it's a really tiny tank.In respect to one being available in the UK the only one I am aware of is the FINTRO by MA, but this works a different way and I personally am not sure of this, due to the risk of LFS water entering the aquarium. Rather than repeat what has already been said, you will find more information HERE Alas, I was unable to find the PFK review on-line that is referred in this article. There is of course plenty more on the subject via Google
I have to say I've always done the 20 mins temperature acclimation with lights out and then the plop and drop including transport water with lights out for a further hour - hold my hand up - hadn't realised there was another way to do it tbh!
@RCA I agree with #1 that was my first misgiving. I know I would try to find a way around that. Those are large and really shouldn't rely on suction at all.
I feel comfortable with #2 though. The surface and the fish itself are wet.
Even with marine fish I have cut down my acclimation times. As I said, one does have to acclimate but it really doesn't have to be as long. A good example for me, we have 2 reef stores here that keep their fish the same as their reef 1.026 which is just what my tank is at so there is no need for me to worry about salinity. When I buy from these two shops I do a rather quick acclimation, probably 15-20 minutes which for a marine fish is fast.
With FW fish I guess I have always used a more plop and drop method now that I look back on it. I float for temp, dump out some water from the bag and add in some from my tank in small amounts until. I dump out about half at that point and put in small amounts until it's full then I let the fish out. That's pretty much it and that whole process doesn't take long.
I do feel that ammonia and the toxins produced by certain fish are more hazardous than water parameter changes but I still feel we should be aware of just how different our water is from the water in the bag or at least be aware of the species' ability to cope with changes.
In the other thread TTA linked to OldMan47 says, "Last year I killed my show entry at the ALA convention by believing that the local water would probably be close enough and knowing the temperature was close. Next morning I had a dead fish in the show tank." Though that's anecdotal I don't think we can discount it coming from someone with his experience.
I feel comfortable with #2 though. The surface and the fish itself are wet.
Even with marine fish I have cut down my acclimation times. As I said, one does have to acclimate but it really doesn't have to be as long. A good example for me, we have 2 reef stores here that keep their fish the same as their reef 1.026 which is just what my tank is at so there is no need for me to worry about salinity. When I buy from these two shops I do a rather quick acclimation, probably 15-20 minutes which for a marine fish is fast.
With FW fish I guess I have always used a more plop and drop method now that I look back on it. I float for temp, dump out some water from the bag and add in some from my tank in small amounts until. I dump out about half at that point and put in small amounts until it's full then I let the fish out. That's pretty much it and that whole process doesn't take long.
I do feel that ammonia and the toxins produced by certain fish are more hazardous than water parameter changes but I still feel we should be aware of just how different our water is from the water in the bag or at least be aware of the species' ability to cope with changes.
In the other thread TTA linked to OldMan47 says, "Last year I killed my show entry at the ALA convention by believing that the local water would probably be close enough and knowing the temperature was close. Next morning I had a dead fish in the show tank." Though that's anecdotal I don't think we can discount it coming from someone with his experience.
tcamos said:
If nothing else, its a cautionary note.
r.w.girard
Fish Crazy
TTA, to respond to your answer to my question, why would testing be needed? If you know you have a pH of say 6.5 or lower in your tank, it shouldn't matter what the water chemistry is because there are only three options:
a) the bagged water has a lower pH than the tank, in which case the mixed water will have a pH less than or equal to 6.5, leading to no increase in toxicity;
b) the bagged water has the same pH than the tank, in which case the mixed water will have the same pH, still less than or equal to 6.5 and therefore leading to no increase in toxicity;
c) the bagged water has a higher pH than the tank, in which cause the mixed water will have a lower pH than bagged water, ultimately reducing toxicity.
Summarily, in all cases, with an at least slightly acidic tank, you will not be at risk to increase toxicity through the introduction of tank water. Of course, here I am only looking at the issues concerning pH and the toxicity of ammonia. The other thing factor here is temperature because, while a room temperature 5ppm of ammonia/-ium is water may be within tolerance in water with a neutral pH, at 80º, it could be fatal.
The reason why I am dwelling on this topic is because many of us in tropical and, possibly especially, in planted tend to keep at least somewhat acidic conditions in our tank. And so, if we know our pH to be at most 6.5, would drip acclimation not be best IF - and this is a big if - we do not increase considerably the temperature of bagged water? I'll explain my reasoning:
If I drip acclamate a fish, using my slightly acidic tank water, without having "floated" the bag, the bag will remain at its already ambient temperature for the period of acclimation period, resulting in a zero to negative change in the levels of toxicity of ammonia, as well as diluting any other pollutants in the water. Further, it would help adjust the fish to the specific water chemistry of the tank: GH, KH and TDS. It would only be at that point, once the pollutants have been removed that you would want to "float" the bag in order to match temperature. Because, it lower temperatures, water will always been less toxic to fish as a) the fish will be less active and b) more ammonia will be converted to ammonium.
And obviously, even drip acclimating fish will increase somewhat the temperature, I simply find it hard to imagine that, it would happen on a large enough scale to seriously increase the ammonia/ammonium ratio for the worse.
If I am correct then, with an acidic tank [6.5 or less], one would want to:
1) Open bag and check for a) dead fish or b) foul odor. If either are present, skip to second to last step.
2) Drip acclimate fish in bucket or bag, changing out some water periodically to help speed the removal of pollutants.
3) Once acclimated to water chemistry, float fish in tank in a clean bag until temperatures match.
4) Net fish and add to tank without adding any of the bagged water.
This, of course, does not take into consideration three possibilities: 1) extremely nasty water in the shipping bag; 2) a higher ambient temperature than in tank; 3) a pH higher than 6.5 in the tank. In the first instance, I think we can all agree that it is best to remove the fish from the polluted water ASAP. In the second, it would probably be wise to switch steps 2 and 3 given above as it would help reduce both stress - from overexertion at higher temperatures - and toxicity. The third case would require its own set of guidelines. Additionally, one could easily multiply the number of special cases - fish lost in transit for a few days, fish that secrete toxins, etc - but the exercise quickly becomes an exercise in futility.
Again, I ask only because I want, like all of us, to do my best and lose the least of my fish possible. The only thing that would worry me is the effect of the introduction of buffers into water which might have been depleted and what that might do, even at a lower pH, in terms of causing some sort of pH spike - and thus ammonia. But there my chemistry gets a little dodgy. In short, is the whole thing simply too complicated and unpredictable, meaning that it would always be best to simply "float and plop" newly arrive fish?
a) the bagged water has a lower pH than the tank, in which case the mixed water will have a pH less than or equal to 6.5, leading to no increase in toxicity;
b) the bagged water has the same pH than the tank, in which case the mixed water will have the same pH, still less than or equal to 6.5 and therefore leading to no increase in toxicity;
c) the bagged water has a higher pH than the tank, in which cause the mixed water will have a lower pH than bagged water, ultimately reducing toxicity.
Summarily, in all cases, with an at least slightly acidic tank, you will not be at risk to increase toxicity through the introduction of tank water. Of course, here I am only looking at the issues concerning pH and the toxicity of ammonia. The other thing factor here is temperature because, while a room temperature 5ppm of ammonia/-ium is water may be within tolerance in water with a neutral pH, at 80º, it could be fatal.
The reason why I am dwelling on this topic is because many of us in tropical and, possibly especially, in planted tend to keep at least somewhat acidic conditions in our tank. And so, if we know our pH to be at most 6.5, would drip acclimation not be best IF - and this is a big if - we do not increase considerably the temperature of bagged water? I'll explain my reasoning:
If I drip acclamate a fish, using my slightly acidic tank water, without having "floated" the bag, the bag will remain at its already ambient temperature for the period of acclimation period, resulting in a zero to negative change in the levels of toxicity of ammonia, as well as diluting any other pollutants in the water. Further, it would help adjust the fish to the specific water chemistry of the tank: GH, KH and TDS. It would only be at that point, once the pollutants have been removed that you would want to "float" the bag in order to match temperature. Because, it lower temperatures, water will always been less toxic to fish as a) the fish will be less active and b) more ammonia will be converted to ammonium.
And obviously, even drip acclimating fish will increase somewhat the temperature, I simply find it hard to imagine that, it would happen on a large enough scale to seriously increase the ammonia/ammonium ratio for the worse.
If I am correct then, with an acidic tank [6.5 or less], one would want to:
1) Open bag and check for a) dead fish or b) foul odor. If either are present, skip to second to last step.
2) Drip acclimate fish in bucket or bag, changing out some water periodically to help speed the removal of pollutants.
3) Once acclimated to water chemistry, float fish in tank in a clean bag until temperatures match.
4) Net fish and add to tank without adding any of the bagged water.
This, of course, does not take into consideration three possibilities: 1) extremely nasty water in the shipping bag; 2) a higher ambient temperature than in tank; 3) a pH higher than 6.5 in the tank. In the first instance, I think we can all agree that it is best to remove the fish from the polluted water ASAP. In the second, it would probably be wise to switch steps 2 and 3 given above as it would help reduce both stress - from overexertion at higher temperatures - and toxicity. The third case would require its own set of guidelines. Additionally, one could easily multiply the number of special cases - fish lost in transit for a few days, fish that secrete toxins, etc - but the exercise quickly becomes an exercise in futility.
Again, I ask only because I want, like all of us, to do my best and lose the least of my fish possible. The only thing that would worry me is the effect of the introduction of buffers into water which might have been depleted and what that might do, even at a lower pH, in terms of causing some sort of pH spike - and thus ammonia. But there my chemistry gets a little dodgy. In short, is the whole thing simply too complicated and unpredictable, meaning that it would always be best to simply "float and plop" newly arrive fish?
TwoTankAmin
Fish Connoisseur
Well I tried to make things easy. I hate that I posted the link to a thread here on this site barely a year old where folks discus this. Now in tht thread were a number of folks saying a number of things, including the fact a number do plop and drop. But the one thing everybody lasered in on was the report of one single fish lost by one person. And this person also said he had used the p&d method with success on other things. So here is what I say, plop and drop did not kill the fish, something else did, Anybody out there is welcome to submit proof that oldman's explanation is correct or that mine is. One dead fish vs others saying it worked great but the worked great part is ignored.
So let me offer the links I PM'd to one of the mods posting in this thread in the wee hours last night. the first is to a discussion on SimplyDiscus in 2006 of acclimation and using the plop and drop. Read what the owners of some of the more sensitive fish routine do. http/forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?50565-Drop-and-Plop-or-Drip-Whatz-Best&s=fcf5f604344d12cf21356bed1e298e5b
I am also friends with the lady who owns Msjinxd.com. See has become a leading importer in the states for fw inverts and nano fish. She was just a speaker at the big NEC weekend event. Here is what she posted in a thread discussing acclimation on the plantedtank.net forum:
The topic of the thread was an oto which died soon after arriving and the poster felt it was his acclimation method that was the cause. Read the entire thread here http/www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=138624
My point is that this is not a some crazy idea I have invented or pulled out of thin air. This topic is not a new one, not even for this site. There are many very experienced people out there using this method regularly with a great deal of success. Does this mean it is the only way to do thing? No, but it does mean there is something to it. So folks can decide for themselves whether oldman's loss of a show guppy or Msjinxd's plopping and dropping many 1,000s of fish and having it reduce her losses by 20% etc. are a better indication about the practice of doing plop and drop acclimations.
But if you are still on the fence, this topic has been discussed for years on lots of sites. You can find a lot of this discussion by doing a google search using the term "plop and drop acclimation". And please, I am not saying this is the only way nor even the best way in any and all situations. What I am saying is it is a viable method in use by numerous folks in the hobby for fw fish and that it can often be the best option.
So let me offer the links I PM'd to one of the mods posting in this thread in the wee hours last night. the first is to a discussion on SimplyDiscus in 2006 of acclimation and using the plop and drop. Read what the owners of some of the more sensitive fish routine do. http
/forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?50565-Drop-and-Plop-or-Drip-Whatz-Best&s=fcf5f604344d12cf21356bed1e298e5bI am also friends with the lady who owns Msjinxd.com. See has become a leading importer in the states for fw inverts and nano fish. She was just a speaker at the big NEC weekend event. Here is what she posted in a thread discussing acclimation on the plantedtank.net forum:
The topic of the thread was an oto which died soon after arriving and the poster felt it was his acclimation method that was the cause. Read the entire thread here http
/www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=138624My point is that this is not a some crazy idea I have invented or pulled out of thin air. This topic is not a new one, not even for this site. There are many very experienced people out there using this method regularly with a great deal of success. Does this mean it is the only way to do thing? No, but it does mean there is something to it. So folks can decide for themselves whether oldman's loss of a show guppy or Msjinxd's plopping and dropping many 1,000s of fish and having it reduce her losses by 20% etc. are a better indication about the practice of doing plop and drop acclimations.
But if you are still on the fence, this topic has been discussed for years on lots of sites. You can find a lot of this discussion by doing a google search using the term "plop and drop acclimation". And please, I am not saying this is the only way nor even the best way in any and all situations. What I am saying is it is a viable method in use by numerous folks in the hobby for fw fish and that it can often be the best option.
This Old Spouse
TOTM Winner May 2013
Hmm. You now have me firmly convinced to drop and plop next time I get fish. I've had problems bringing fish home (it's been anywhere from a 1-5 hour trip for me) and I've always lost some fish (not necessarily right away) trying to acclimate them with the drip method. I had always thought that "shocking" them with different water was more dangerous, but I'm beginning to see the light. After all, what's the first thing we recommend to someone whose fish are obviously suffering from ammonia poisoning? Change the water immediately! I'm sure this is what has happened to my countless poor cory I've brought home and tried to drip acclimate. They were poisoned with their own waste.
I'm in.
I'm in.
I need a bit more convincing, as I am sitting where r.w. is. My pH is 6.2-6.4. Depending on how recently I've done (and the size of) a water change.
I wouldn't go so far as to say "everybody lasered" but to more fully flesh out OldMan's comment he said:
"Acclimation: If you have hardy fish, go ahead with a plop and drop. If you have sensitive fish or fish from different waters, you had better drip them over an hour or two. Last year I killed my show entry at the ALA convention by believing that the local water would probably be close enough and knowing the temperature was close. Next morning I had a dead fish in the show tank. I had dripped the ones I was keeping in my room and simply scooped one and plopped it into that show tank as a replacement entry. The dripped fish survived, even with the move from tank to tank, the plopped fish went in the bin."
He was comparing dripped fish to the non-dripped fish using the same water so while (like I said above) it is anecdotal there are enough questions related to his post to explore why the dripped fish lived. Could it be coincidence? Of course it could that's why I pointed out it's anecdotal.
With FW I don't do much acclimating so I put myself in the plop and drop camp but certain fish I do still acclimate more carefully based on the same premise OldMan was suggesting the hardiness of the species. I suppose I'm saying plop and drop thoughtfully is all.
tcamos said:
I believe the phrase I used was "cautionary note". Certainly, TTA, you'd admit that there are exceptions where more caution is warranted than others, would you not?
TwoTankAmin
Fish Connoisseur
OK- this will be my last post in this thread. I will reiterate what I said one final time- the plop and drop method is one way to do things. In some cases it is even the advisable way to do things. It is not the only way to do things so each situation should be judged by the facts and that the facts are often best determined by testing. Nowhere have I suggested plop and drop was the only method one should use. Oh yes, I did try to point out when and why it might be preferred. Oddly, enough nobody seriously disputed those facts.
And since we are playing the cautionary card? Has anybody out there lost a fish, either a cheap danio or a several $100 discus etc. doing a drip acclimation or a slow addition of tank water to the bag? If you have, should we be warning folks about the dangers of using these methods? It just isn't that simple.
And since we are playing the cautionary card? Has anybody out there lost a fish, either a cheap danio or a several $100 discus etc. doing a drip acclimation or a slow addition of tank water to the bag? If you have, should we be warning folks about the dangers of using these methods? It just isn't that simple.
Similar threads
Most reactions
-
445 -
298 -
247
-
217
-
204 -
189 -
165 -
164 -
162 -
156 -
125 -
121 -
111 -
103 -
91