A ? About Adding Fish That Were Shipped To The Tank

[eaglesaquarium]

I always net the fish and never add the water from the bag to my tank.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Well sort of T O S, and thanks for the comment. I actually set a net on a bucket and then pour out the water and the fish through the net. That way any fish that miss the net go into the bucket. I find it too hard to maneuver nets inside anything but larger bags and usually my fish have arrived in smaller ones. When I get the occasional larger bag of fish I often pour it into a bucket and then net from there. I just find that easier than trying to net fish in bags. I have to often managed to whack some or squash them accidentally so I figured I needed to have a better method.
 
I absolutely never pour bag water into established tanks and I always Q new fish. I learned that lesson the hard way.

 

[RCA]

 
As well as assisting ~heidi~ this is an interesting debate; to plop or not to plop?
 
From my perspective there are a number of things to consider:

1. Light - I would do as eaglesaquarium has advised, as they will have been in the dark for sometime and sudden light may shock them.  I actually drew the curtains and turned out all lights with only a little coming from the doorway when I got my first shipped fish.
2. Temperature - I definitely believe in getting the fish up to temperature by floating the bag in the aquarium is important.
3. Acclimatising - I like the link that has been provided by eaglesaquarium except for the comment in the Quote below...
4. Testing - I like to test the water the fish arrives in, as this gives me a guide to them settling into my aquarium.  In this respect ~heidi~ you can do this on their arrival, but you could also ask the person you are getting them from what their water parameters are currently?  Of course there is a risk with the latter suggestion in that it may not be 100% accurate, with different test kits etc.  Also, see further on re: plop and drop.

Lift the shipping bag from the aquarium and discard half the water from the bag
[SOURCE]

 
Great discussion points... Almost worthy of a separate thread.  I might move this and any other relevant stuff to a new thread, if it picks up steam.
 
 
As for the reason for the quoted section: the link to the acclimation process is from a commercial seller in the US.  They send their fish in fairly large amounts of water, so removing some of the water makes it easier to float and fill, if going that method.  If you use the drip method, there's no reason to do that - just have a large enough bucket on hand (fish specific, of course!).
 
 
 
Honestly, we need to have our own "Acclimation guide" complete with pictures, etc.

 
Agreed, I almost thought we should have one called "To plop and drop, or not?"  Of course with the relevant tags i.e. acclimatisation ...
Agree again, so who is best qualified to write one?  Plus should it include as an option a section on "plop and drop"?
 
 

An excellent read, TwoTankAmin. You raise some interesting points.
 
I have one question: do you net the fish out of the bag and put them in the tank? I ask this because I always worry that by pouring the bag into the tank I might be introducing something bad that might be avoided by netting the fish, which I do.

 
Yes, very good reading TwoTankAdmin
I always try to scoop my fish removing as much water as possible from the scoop, or I net, but never pour.  I prefer a scoop as it does not seem to stress the fish as much.  Plus I always try to Quarantine all new fish.
 

I always net the fish and never add the water from the bag to my tank.

 
Yup, never add water from the bag ideally, although with the scoop a very small amount may enter the aquarium, but the benefit is the fish is never out of water.
 

The one thing I do know is if you open a bag of shipped in fish and it stinks, get the fish into clean water ASAP (as soon as practical). If a bag arrives and some fish are dead, get the rest into clean water ASAP.

 
Cheers, I realise that now and so wish I had moved quicker, as the shock from foul to clean water would have been a lesser risk than remaining in the foul water.  Unsure whether the little fella would have pulled through though?
 

In the end each of us has to do what we think is best for our fish...
 
What is important is to understand what is going on and then decide how to handle it.

 
Truer Words Were Never Spoken - thanks

 

[CezzaXV]

I'm not disagreeing with the ammonia issue, but surely when you drip water in, you're massively diluting the ammonia until it's almost non-existent? I would have thought that the risk of shocking/massively stressing your fish by plopping and dropping was far greater than leaving them in the (increasingly diluted) ammonia water for a small amount of additional time.

 
Cezza, I cannot speak for another, obviously, but I think the idea is that the ammonia in the water is not necessarily "increasingly diluted," as less toxic ammonium is converted to ammonia exponentially in relation to pH increase and also increases in function of temperature.  Adding twice as much clean water could still mean twice as much ammonia in ppm.  In short, this is why what changes, even large ones in a tank with "old tank syndrome" is so dangerous: when you add new water, the pH can swing, converting latent ammonium into ammonia, poisoning, in the case of new arrivals, already weak fish.
 
But, then again, I always drip-acclamate my new fish...

I understand your point.

From my point of view, I would have thought that by the time they get to you, any damage done by ammonia will already be done, and an extra hour (at most) won't really make a difference. I would never plop and drop a fish bought from an LFS, let alone a fish that may already be stressed, in ill health due to ammonia poisoning etc due to being shipped. It's also worth noting that ammonium isn't non-toxic, it's just less toxic.

If you're really worried about getting them out of that water, I would still drip acclimatise, but drip the water in much more quickly than you normally would. I also don't just drip new water in, I also remove water as the container fills up, so that by the end I hope there is hardly any of the original water left.

I think it's just down to opinion really, as a proper scientific study into this is beyond the scope of most of us, and would be unethical in any case. I would also choose not to get a fish shipped to me, and if there was a fish I wanted that wasn't in my LFS, I would ask them to order it in for me. If they were unable/unwilling to do so, I would take my business elsewhere (but then, I'm lucky enough to have four LFS within a 30 minute drive from me). Not knocking anyone who does so, just saying that I would not be morally comfortable with getting a fish shipped to me, in the same way that I wouldn't be morally comfortable with plopping and dropping based on the facts as I understand/interpret them.

 

[RCA]

[deleted text]

If you're really worried about getting them out of that water, I would still drip acclimatise, but drip the water in much more quickly than you normally would. I also don't just drip new water in, I also remove water as the container fills up, so that by the end I hope there is hardly any of the original water left.

[deleted text]

 
Can you tell me how you remove the water at the same time?  Do you have a tube dripping in and a tube dripping out?
Where are you located as it does not say in your Avatar section?  certainly lucky to have four, hopefully good LFS nearby.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I watched a video of a "acclimization box" that allows you to do exactly that.  The box hangs on the side of your tank with suction cups (I'm a bit wary of that) and they run one tube from the tank into the box, and another from the box into a bucket on the floor.  It also comes with a "inner box" which allows you to just lift the box up and place the fish in the tank without netting (the inner box has holes to allow the water to run through).
 
 
They had a video and they were acclimatizing the fish, and added blue food coloring to the acclimatizing fish to illustrate the "shipment water" and let it run its course.  After the one hour, the blue was gone, illustrating visually that the acclimation water had been matched to the tank.
 
Not a bad demo.  I'm not going to buy the product - I can't even remember the name of it, but its very possible to do - and a DIY person could easily do it as well.

 

[CezzaXV]

[deleted text]

If you're really worried about getting them out of that water, I would still drip acclimatise, but drip the water in much more quickly than you normally would. I also don't just drip new water in, I also remove water as the container fills up, so that by the end I hope there is hardly any of the original water left.

[deleted text]

 
Can you tell me how you remove the water at the same time?  Do you have a tube dripping in and a tube dripping out?
Where are you located as it does not say in your Avatar section?  certainly lucky to have four, hopefully good LFS nearby.

I have the fish in a bucket or container of some sort, then drip water in, then as it fills up I just remove some every so often with a jug, though you could also have another line to siphon water out into an additional container. I realise this isn't an ideal situation, as the temperature can drop without floating it in the tank, but every method has its troubles.

I live within travelling distance of Newton Abbot, Torquay, Teignmouth and Exeter, all within 30 minutes of me, plus there are a few more LFS if I'm willing to travel a little further. Some of them are better than others, and some of them are better on some things than others, but I'm lucky to have so much choice.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I hoped someone in this thread would have a light bulb come on and figure out another way to acclimate if you do not want to do the plop and drop.

Let's try to keep the comments on topic and not negative or condescending towards others in the thread.
 
 

I ship fish and have always added a small amount of Amquel to the bag water. Of course this makes it hard for folks at the other end to test ammonia accurately. I hate using the bag buddies which turn the water blue as it makes it impossible for most folks to test the water for anything.

 
The shipments I have received have always come with the blue water.  Personally, I prefer that to the alternative which is ammonia poisoned fish.  I see your point about being able to test it for other things, but at the same time, I'd rather see visual evidence that the ammonia in the water has been detoxified than to have to guess and add unnecessary chemicals to the small volume of water.  I can always increase the acclimation period if I feel its warranted.  This view does seem to clash with your "plop and drop" support.  If "plopping and dropping" is acceptable, then why would there be a need to test at all?
 
 
 

Regarding shipping corys there is a special consideration. When frightened they will excrete a hormone (I think hormone but if is for sure some substance). In the wild it can act as a bit of a repellant and then dissipates rapidly. However, if they do this in the bag, it can create issues. Many cory shipper will uses the kick the bucket method to try and prevent this. Corys are put into a buclet of clean water and the bucket is give a swift kick every 5 or 10 minutes. The idea is to scare the fish into releasing the hormone into the bucket water. After a few kicks, the fish are removed from the bucket and bagged in clean water. The problem is once corys have spent time in bag water with the hormone, they do not tend to recover. Often a clue there is a problem is you may see red areas on the fish when they arrive.

 
This is some fascinating information.  I'd never heard of this *substance* before.  I knew that they had some poisonous barbs around their heads, as do many catfish, but not about this secretion when frightened.
 
 

As for how many times I have used the plop and drop, pretty much for anything I have gotten in the last 3 or 4 years. I have found that most fish are a lot hardier than we think. The last time was Friday. I picked up 50 amano shrimp which had been bagged Thursday morning. I put them into the plant wash tank where their job is to clean plants of algae I will rotate in and out. I got them out of the bag and into the tank about 36 hours after they went in. I floated the bags during dinner, and then opened them and dropped in the shrimp. They are all fine still and happily munching algae. And shrimp are normally less hardy than fish when it comes to toxic stuff in the water.
 
I have done the plop and drop with a variety of fish besides altums which include some very rare and pricey Hypancistrus plecos.

What is important is to understand what is going on and then decide how to handle it.

 
I would be wary of using a few instances of anecdotal success to expand into a discussion of "best practices".  Personally, I think that while we may be able to get away with certain things, that doesn't necessarily mean that we need to promote it.  For example, I may be able to speed quite regularly and not be caught with no ill effects, but that in no way means that I should promote speeding to inexperienced drivers.
 
 
The last sentence is really the key to all aspects of fishkeeping though.  Knowing what is going on enables us to make informed decisions regarding how to handle it.  While we may have slightly different views on the best course of action, knowing what the problem is definitely keeps us from making the problem dramatically worse.

 

[daizeUK]

Very interested in this topic.  I did a fair bit of background reading on the subject before I got my first fish and got the general impression that the best method is to acclimate temperature for 10-20 minutes, then drop the fish straight in.
 
Some very interesting points raised in this thread and I would definitely like to see it debated in more detail.  For instance, I have read that acclimating fish (aside from temperature) serves no purpose as the fish cannot adjust their metabolism to new water parameters that quickly, even if you acclimated very very slowly it would still take days for them to adjust fully.  I can't verify whether that's true but I'd be interested to find out more.

 

[Chad]

Marine, as mentioned, is a different matter and really deserves its own thread. In marine the issues of salinity require a drip acclimation in many cases. For example a fish at high salinity tends to be able to adjust to lower quite well but not so the other way around. Since my reef tank is almost always higher than most LFS fish areas I must slowly accliimate the fish.
 
I agree with TTA's point that we need to make a judgement call when it comes to acclimation. Sometimes the toxins in the bag are more harmful than the "shock" of being plopped into a new tank. Ammonia is just one example of this but another is the toxins that some fish create. Cory in FW and mandarin in marine have a toxic slime coat they form when stressed and this can be deadly. The risk of leaving them in the bag is greater than the risk of a quick "plop and drop" introduction.
 
This http/www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/1/aafeature2#section-2 and this http/edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa119 (though not perfect) are useful articles.

 

[RCA]

I watched a video of a "acclimization box" that allows you to do exactly that.  The box hangs on the side of your tank with suction cups (I'm a bit wary of that) and they run one tube from the tank into the box, and another from the box into a bucket on the floor.  It also comes with a "inner box" which allows you to just lift the box up and place the fish in the tank without netting (the inner box has holes to allow the water to run through).
 
 
They had a video and they were acclimatizing the fish, and added blue food coloring to the acclimatizing fish to illustrate the "shipment water" and let it run its course.  After the one hour, the blue was gone, illustrating visually that the acclimation water had been matched to the tank.
 
Not a bad demo.  I'm not going to buy the product - I can't even remember the name of it, but its very possible to do - and a DIY person could easily do it as well.

 
Was this the video?  Now I must

 

[Chad]

From a marine perspective that box is great and I will 100% be buying one. I use a pretty good acclimation system now but looking at this video I can see how this system is much better than what I use...much. Me like!

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I watched a video of a "acclimization box" that allows you to do exactly that.  The box hangs on the side of your tank with suction cups (I'm a bit wary of that) and they run one tube from the tank into the box, and another from the box into a bucket on the floor.  It also comes with a "inner box" which allows you to just lift the box up and place the fish in the tank without netting (the inner box has holes to allow the water to run through).
 
 
They had a video and they were acclimatizing the fish, and added blue food coloring to the acclimatizing fish to illustrate the "shipment water" and let it run its course.  After the one hour, the blue was gone, illustrating visually that the acclimation water had been matched to the tank.
 
Not a bad demo.  I'm not going to buy the product - I can't even remember the name of it, but its very possible to do - and a DIY person could easily do it as well.

 
Was this the video?  Now I must

 
Not the same video, but the same product.  The video I saw was marine species and the larger box.  That product looks nice, but you can get the same results without the expense, IMHO.  But, then again, I'm more of a DIY guy. 

 

[Chad]

For years I've used an airline tube with a valve on it and a bucket on the floor. But I do like a slick package and love the ability to lift the fish out of the water without net or capture stress.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

It does look sleek.