A ? About Adding Fish That Were Shipped To The Tank

[Chad]

...Oddly, enough nobody seriously disputed those facts...
 
...Has anybody out there lost a fish, either a cheap danio or a several $100 discus etc. doing a drip acclimation or a slow addition of tank water to the bag? If you have, should we be warning folks about the dangers of using these methods?...
 
... It just isn't that simple.

 
I don't think it's odd at all. The reason I don't think it's odd is that you are correct in stating that drop and plop is a viable acclimation method.
 
The second point about drip acclimation is also a sound one. I have lost fish due to too long an acclimation which is why I have shortened my acclimation of marine fish considerably and have always done FW fish rather quickly.
 
Lastly...I feel that because it isn't that simple is the reason the topic is still discussed and debated.

 

[This Old Spouse]

What I'm getting out of this is the longer a fish is confined to a small space (bag) the more likely it's better to do the d&p method. If it's a short trip from the LFS to home, acclimating with a drip method would probably work best. 

 

[eaglesaquarium]

OK- this will be my last post in this thread. I will reiterate what I said one final time- the plop and drop method is one way to do things. In some cases it is even the advisable way to do things. It is not the only way to do things so each situation should be judged by the facts and that the facts are often best determined by testing. Nowhere have I suggested plop and drop was the only method one should use. Oh yes, I did try to point out when and why it might be preferred. Oddly, enough nobody seriously disputed those facts.
 
And since we are playing the cautionary card? Has anybody out there lost a fish, either a cheap danio or a several $100 discus etc. doing a drip acclimation or a slow addition of tank water to the bag? If you have, should we be warning folks about the dangers of using these methods? It just isn't that simple.

 
I believe the idea here is that there are situations for each, rather than a one size fits all - always do it "this" way.  My dad always did "plop and drop".  I do "drip acclimation" (I've also used the "float and fill" method). 
 
 
Moving fish from one environment to another environment is a very stressful thing.  It should always be our goal to try to make it the least stressful we can.  Certainly shortening the period of time it is confined in a small space helps, but I think that there are other things to consider.  Certainly, I don't have all the answers, which is why I came to this forum in the first place to discuss things like this with others. 
 
 
Now, getting back to the original reason for the "word of caution", when a keeper like Oldman47 loses his "SHOW" fish, I think that we should all take a bit of warning.  We aren't discussing a fish that was just purchased and may have been sick with who knows what before it arrived at our doorstep, or what temperature extremes or ammonia levels it was exposed to in transit -  nor are we talking about a newbie fishkeeper.  In this particular case, we are talking about a highly successful fishkeeper and his PRIZED fish that he had kept for a significant period of time.  I assume (perhaps wrongly - having not seen the fish) that it was healthy when Oldman47 decided to take it and display it at the show.  And he lost this fish.  Was "plop and drop" the culprit?  I don't know.  But, Oldman offered caution himself in certain cases, and we should be open to all possibilities for why the fish died.  No autopsy is available certainly, but there are a variety of factors involved.  Oldman himself seemed to think that it was his acclimatization method choice that was responsible.  That is all I am saying.  If that makes me hypercritical of the "plop and drop" method, then so be it.  I'm not dismissing the "plop and drop" as prescribed by your posts.  All I'm saying is that I need to research it more before I will change my method.
 
 
 
I think the real message should be that there are advantages and disadvantages to each of these methods.  And we should be striving for the BEST practices here.  I think that it is worthy of discussion, even if it came up in a thread here a year ago.  Its an important part of the hobby and its one that I believe we all want to do "properly".  Also, this topic came up from an new fishkeeper, and is something that we should be willing to discuss frequently - and its one that a lot of new fishkeepers are concerned about.

 

[daizeUK]

Well said Eagle!
 
 

What I'm getting out of this is the longer a fish is confined to a small space (bag) the more likely it's better to do the d&p method. If it's a short trip from the LFS to home, acclimating with a drip method would probably work best. 

 
I don't think it's even that simple.  I drove my first fish home from the LFS in 30 minutes.  I know the LFS has got the same pH and GH as me, so water conditions are identical and it seems pointless to drip acclimate.  When I tested the bag water it contained >0.5ppm ammonia.  I'm a newbie so I don't know if that's normal ammonia reading for 4 juvenile platies after 30 minutes in a bag but it seemed pretty high to me, especially accounting for our local pH of 8.2 so I reasoned that leaving the fish in the bag was not very good for them at all.  In my situation I think the best course of action was 10 minutes float to roughly equalise temperature, then get them out of there and in the tank. 
 
 
TTA - I was interested in your quote from your friend who said:
"My losses went down by 20% upon import when I stopped trying to drip acclimate. You would have to do it for days for it to really be slow enough for the fish to acclimate to differences in hardness and TDS."
 
This supports what I've heard before, that fish really need days to acclimate to new water conditions.  Yet OldMan's anecdotal tale seems to contradict this.  I'm sure that this is worth investigating further, to find out exactly what the benefits of drip acclimation are and under what conditions it should be used.

 

[~heidi~]

Thank you everyone for all your help and advice. My beautiful new fish arrived Wedneday and they are doing very well. They were very scared and stressed for the first few days but they are doing very well now... I was even able to turn my light back on. ;-)
 
I posted a few pics in the pics area if you want to see my new babies...
 
Thank you again for your advice!

 

[This Old Spouse]

I couldn't find the pics. Could you please put a link here?

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I got it.
 
http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/417184-my-new-blue-platys/

 

[This Old Spouse]

Thanks, eagles! 

 

[r.w.girard]

Heidi, can I dare ask what method you used?
 
Because it is one thing to debate a topic, another for it to matter...

 

[~heidi~]

Heidi, can I dare ask what method you used?
 
Because it is one thing to debate a topic, another for it to matter...

 
 
Well,  I must admit, I am kind of afraid to post it.. lol..
 
Please don't jump on me.. I am sure I did it wrong but, thankfully, all worked out fine.
 
When I opened the box they were very pale and looked quite stressed.. One of them was laying on the bottom of its bag, kind of on its side. I was very concerned about leaving them in those tiny bags much longer than they already had been. (somewhere around 2 and a half days).
 
I first floated them for about an hour, then I filled the 3 gallon bucket I use to clean my tanks with, about a 1/4 full, with my tank water and I opened their bags and gently poured them into the bucket. I let them settle down in there for a few minutes then I gently picked up the bucket and slowly and carefully netted and set them into my tank (so as not to get any of the water from their bags into my tank). I left my tank light off  from Wednesday until Friday afternoon. 
 
At first they all hid but by the next morning 2 of them were swimming around with the other fish and by Friday they were all out and about. Their color looks much better and, I watched very closely last night, they are all eating well.
 
I know this is not the recommended way to add fish into a tank but I was very worried about the ammonia in their bag water and I really felt the safest thing for them was to get them into my tank, where the water is in excellent condition...

 

[This Old Spouse]

I don't see anything wrong with this method. It certainly worked, and I think you were right to get them out of their ammonia-filled bag as soon as possible.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Sounds like a good method... For me, results are the most important thing.  A live, active fish is the goal.
 
 
I learned this in glider flight training as a teen...  "A good landing is one that you can walk away from".  A good acclimation is one that the fish can swim away from. 

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Well you know me, never let it rest. only this time there is one difference, no links. I did hiours worth of research on lab studies regarding assorted fish for assorted things- but either pH and /or TDS stuff figured prominently. Here is what I saw- almost every one used an acclimation period of at least 7 days.
 
The difference between these studies and everything in this thread is they often dissected fish every day and also took sophisticated physiological measurements. And lo and behold some of the change did not show up until the 5th and 6th day of the acclimation period. Especially changes in genetic components. Its very boring and technical so just read the red parts and i will not provide a link to the study either
 
"We examined genomic and nongenomic changes to gills of zebrafish as they were progressively acclimated from moderately hard freshwater to typical soft water over 7 days and held in soft water for another 7 days. Gills were sampled daily and mRNA expression levels of gill Na+-K+-ATPase (NKA) α1a subunit, epithelium calcium channel (ECaC), carbonic anhydrase-1 and 2 (CA-1, CA-2), Na+/H+ exchanger (NHE-2), V-type proton (H+)-ATPase, and copper transport protein (CTR-1) were quantified by real-time PCR. Changes in enzyme activities of gill NKA were determined and protein levels of NKA and ECaC were quantified by Western blotting. Levels of mRNA for ECaC increased fourfold after day 6, with an associated increase in ECaC protein levels after 1 wk in soft water. CA-1 and CA-2 exhibited a 1.5- and 6-fold increase in gene expression on days 6 and 5, respectively. Likewise, there was a fivefold increase in NHE-2 expression after day 6. Surprisingly, CTR-1 mRNA showed a large transient increase (over threefold) on day 6, while H+-ATPase mRNA did not change."
 
So apparently true acclimation may take a bit more time than even a several hour drip for a number of factors.
 
"Zebrafish (Danio rerio) were purchased from a local pet supply store (PetsMart, Canada) and housed in two 40-liter aquaria in dechlorinated Hamilton tap water, which is considered moderately hard (Na+ 927 ± 16 μM, Ca2+ 946 ± 11 μM, Mg2+ 422 ± 17 μM, Cu2+ 2.1 ± 0.7 μg/l, pH 8.3), maintained at 28°C (hard water). The fish were allowed 1 wk to acclimate to the new tanks before experimentation."
 
then....
 
"Over a period of 7 days, hard water was progressively removed and replaced with ion-poor reverse-osmosis water (∼15–20% daily, over a period of 15 minutes), until ion levels in the water were reduced to 115 ± 3 μM Na+, 51 ± 1 μM Ca2+, 26 ± 1 μM Mg2+, 1.8 ± 0.5 μg/l Cu2+; pH 6.8."
 
Well dang if they didn't do the actual daily level change pretty fast and then let the fish sit in it for 24 hours before doing it again. Talk about a huge sized drop but a short term drip.
 
Here is another Hoot, Apparently the seminal research into osmoregulation in fish was done in the 1930s and is apparently pretty much unchanged since. It has been expounded upon and made more detailed due to the new methods that have come along since then.
 
OK I know I promised, but there is a wealth of info on osmoregulation etc. out there, so, if you are nuts enough to want to look at it, this link should keep you busy for a good month or two: Teleost fish osmoregulation: what have we learned since August Krogh, Homer Smith, and Ancel Keys  (they were the folks from the 1930s)
http://ajpregu.physiology.org/content/295/2/R704.full
 
 

 

[Chad]

Very interesting TTA.  It's funny how some information from 2006 I won't accept as current but some from 1900 I will.
 
So if I'm understanding it right TRUE acclimation takes some time to complete but the fish is able to cope with this.
 
The main question I have is: what are the limits of this? What is too fast and what is too slow. I feel from personal experience that there is a too fast and a too slow but does that depend on species? Does the difference in type of water before and after matter? For example if a fish is coming from pH 6.8 and going into something like a reef tank at 8.5 pH can that be done fast? Done slow? Or not at all?
 
Great info!

 

[TwoTankAmin]

trying to edit this post made a mess so I deleted it all will try again another time