would you guys keep a betta in this...

[SRC]

lol I like that response. You totally avoided BettaMomma's questions..and instead gave out the response "I'm smarter then you because I have done *blah blah*". Just because you have gone to whatever school and got whatever degree and bred however many fish for however many years... doesn't make you smart, only educated.

So far you have not offered any proof to your stance. Just your opinions.
-john

I most certainly did not give an "opinion". I didn't say I "think" my fish do this or that..I told you what they actually DO, on a daily basis. There is a distinct difference in a opinion and a statement. Mine was a statement of fact. You have done nothing but make a couple illogical insults/jabs then try to back your way out of them by throwing out ill-referenced facts that have nothing to do with what we were discussing in the first place (like I've been to college and I got a degree..nahna)...then say "take it to e-mail" because you can't sit here and say what you want..for fear of whatever it is you are afraid of..to speak publically maybe. Afraid of being wrong in public?

This has turned into a debate..I am not *arguing* with you. I am not trying to personally attack you...yet your method of thinking towards these obviously intelligent (even if for only a fish) animals.

I will go a step further and say that my neons, rasboras, and my UDC are the same way..not to the same extent as the bettas..as they are not nearly as "personable" as the bettas..in that they do not seek me out for attention. But they know when it's water changing time, they know when it's feeding time...and they most definately know if it's ME coming to feed them or if it is someone else.

They are not nearly as anxious to eat when someone else feeds them. My UDC will not even come from under her hiding spot unless it is ME feeding them. She just stays hidden until whoever else it is leaves the area. And they are never fed at the same time..or even same time of day. She can feel the vibrations of an individual coming toawrds her tank and until she see's WHO it is..she will not come out (she has picked a hiding spot where she feels you cannot see her but she can see you...as opposed to hiding in other spots more readily assible to her. If I move that hiding spot she will fidn another with a similar angle)...and until the vibrations tell her you have stepped away from teh tank..she won't come out.

I'm sorry..that gives reasoning to them having some thought process.

I'm sorry...but that is not conditioning. They have to be able to look and see that they know who you are...otherwise they would not act differently towards you and other people.

and I'm sorry..I think you are being very closed minded.


You say they are "conditioned". I'd like your *opinion* on how they could be conditioned...when I never look the same. Sometimes my hair is down, sometimes it is pulled tightly into a bun, sometimes it is curly. I do not look the same...which is what conditioning generaly means...when one become accustomed to a certain action/thing. When I use different feeding instruments. When I move their hiding spots and they find one with a similar position so they can stay hidden but still have a open view of the front of the tank.



?

I'd like to hear a rational explination of how any one of those instances woudl be considered "conditioned".

And just so you can have something to fall back on:

con·di·tioned (kn-dshnd)
adj.
1. Subject to or dependent on a condition or conditions.
2. Physically fit.
3. Prepared for a specific action or process.
4. Psychology. Exhibiting or trained to exhibit a conditioned response.

 

[OrkyBetta]

Alas, the first rule of the betta section, you don't mess with bettamomma. She is a caring person, but is not afrad to whoop your behind.

 

[red-devil0602]

ooh i feel a group hug coming on

 

[BettaMomma]

Ha.
I am not afraid to stick up for little betta kiddos.
They are treated like crap enough without having someone call them stupid, too.

I think he left. Apparently we made our point.

I have to say *hi five* to you, SRC.

 

[SRC]

He wants you to e-mail him..so he can curse and belittle you. He just didn't want to do it openly in public.

I think that was very immature..because I think we are all smart enough to know that's what would happen should someone have e-mailed him. Otherwise he would have spoken his peace here.

 

[Andie]

I would say at least, although humans' brains are humongous, we only use a third of it in a lifetime.

That's actually a very common misconception. While it's true that not all parts of our brain can be consciously controlled by us, the majority of scientists agree (by proof of MRI scans, ultrasonic imaging and like technologies) that the brain is used anywhere from its majority to its entirety; it's merely different sections of it that are active at different times, whether you are reading, watching TV, sleeping, eating, etc. For that reason above all others I agree with you- we can't presume to know what is going on the brains of any other animal, including a fish. We can observe and hypothesize, but we can't know for sure.

However, while the question here has become the intelligence level of the betta, I believe it was initially concerning the surroundings in which he is kept, which I agree are unsuitable regardless of how smart he may or may not be. While he may not register happiness and contentment in the same manner as humans, the fact remains that he is residing long-term in a body (well, appendage, really) of water that will not allow for the mental/physical stimulation he needs to keep him healthy. He does not have the room to move to the degree necessary to permit proper bloodflow and there is not enough in the bowl to stimulate his senses (however limited or ample you might want to argue they are). He may survive for a period of time if he is fed and changed regularly, but he will not thrive, and sooner or later the stress that is brought on by the bi-weekly/weekly water changes needed to keep that tank in an even semi-liveable condition is going to do him in.

I'm sure your friend does not intend to be cruel; she's placed him in surroundings that are moderately clean, and appears willing to keep him as a pet if only for his ornamental properties. Try convincing her to at least up her tank size to a 1/2 gallon to a gallon; she can pick up a very cheap little setup at her WalMart or LPS, and might even appreciate the aesthetic value of the fish being more active in a larger tank. That way the fish will have a better shot at making it past the six month mark, and she'll have the questionable satisfaction of having appeased a posse of semi-rabid betta lovers, yours truly included

 

[red-devil0602]

on the topic of brains, we all know where mens brains are no offense guys just trying to lighten the mood

 

[Bettabelieveit]

And just -where- would that be? I know mine's in my fish tank

 

[red-devil0602]

ain't that harmful to the fish

 

[Andie]

on the topic of brains, we all know where mens brains are no offense guys just trying to lighten the mood

*snort snicker chortle*

lol I can't talk, though- my brain went to my dogs and fish a long time ago, so I'm hardly in a position to laugh at the guys

 

[Bettabelieveit]

Hm, well.. I've heard they like peas, and I do believe I have been called a pea-brain at one time or another.... ......

 

[OrkyBetta]

ooh i feel a group hug coming on

*hug* there, now I'm done.

 

[red-devil0602]

i feel like we have made a group break-thru (bfaa), would you like to join john theres plenty of love to go round

 

[FalconStorm]

Hi, john. I'm from Fort Worth. I'm thinking about joining the betta society, but right now, they're just great pets and I don't have room for more. I probably won't join until I'm ready to breed.

I don't think the mods mind a debate in here, John, as long as it stays civil and open minded. Also, I like keeping this where others can view it, again, as long as it stays civil. If you would really prefer email, I might email you, but I'd really like to keep this here, as long as it's okay with the mods. I get the feeling you don't want to *argue*, but a good debate is okay?

First, I'm wondering if the subject has gotten a little off. I don't think this thread started by talking about a betta's intelligence level. It was simply an argument against keeping a betta in such a small container. I notice that you posted earlier that the container does not seem too small to you, however, you later stated that you do not support the abuse of these fish. I would like to establish that such a container on a long term basis would be abuse to the fish.

Putting arguments regarding potential 'boredom' or intelligence levels aside, a 1/4 gallon tank would be detrimental to the betta's physiological health. First, there is very little room to move in that tank. The betta can turn a tight circle, but little else. This limitation is conducive to lethargy which can slow blood circulation. It also limits the betta in performing the actions such as patrolling a territory, that its instincts drive it to do, and can result in stress for the fish. While the fish will survive for a time in these conditions, it will shorten its lifespan and stunt growth. Similar conditions in any other animal are considered abuse. Would it not be hypocritical to extend one definition of abuse to one animal and apply a different definition for another?

I agree that a betta is not as intelligent as a human, but everything is relative. Relative to other fish, bettas appear to be highly intelligent. Their response to stimuli is more varied and harbors actions more reminiscent of personality than many other species of fish. Other species of fish are allowed consideration for tank size as appropriate to their behavior and physical needs. Why, then, is a betta considered to be less needful of appropriate conditions?

Please feel free to dispute these thoughts. I do feel strongly about the conditions these fish are kept in, but I am more than happy to consider another opinion and position.

 

[BettaMomma]

Wow.
I left for like 40 minutes and came back for a good laugh. Thanks!

BBit - go back and read your post.
When you said "mine's in my fish tank...
and then someone replied and said "wouldn't that be harmful to the fish?" I think some were thinking something wacky. heh heh heh

ANYWAY...
SRC - you're exactly correct. He wants to bust loose on me, in private, I'm sure so you won't all hate him for it. Aaah well - who really cares.

These fish are obviously smart enough to make us be their slaves.