Why Hobbiest find Discus fish Demanding!

[Mazain]

they won't work in your aquarium - fundamentally the temp is incompatible with your existing fishes. Also they require a large tank - you didn't say how many discus or how many gallons your aquarium is - but this is my 180 and i really think it should have been a 350 gallon; this is for 10 discus.

As for plants not doing well with discus that is hogwash; discus actually prefer plants. The issue is people like to feed young discus very heavy protein rich food like beef heart that is extremely messy and pollutes the water and if that crap gets into the substrate it will impede water quality in a major way. Don't get me wrong that is a method for maximizing discus size but imho it is not a good way to raise discus.

There are substrates that are better at not allowing stuff to penetrate them (denser substrate) and that will improve in the cleaning but regardless the more water and space you have the better. These guys are only around 5 inches - while wild caught they never hide or react badly (but it did take me 3 or 4 weeks to get there as they were very stressed initially); they do greatly prefer blackworms so i tend to feed them a bit too much of it with lots of greens - i make sure every feeding they get a very good helping of greens.

My recommendation from the very short period of time i've had discus (approx 3 months); a min. of 200 gallons for 6 discus; warm temp - the younger they are the higher the temp - these guys will get very very fussy if the temp drops below 82.5; younger discus are going to want 84-86 all the time and heckels even higher. I use very soft acidic water but that is partially because they are wild caught and because i can - it is not strictly required for tank raised fishes.

Hum. I guess that is it for today; in 12 to 18 months i might have more experience to make more comments.

How big is your aquarium?

Thanks for your information. My Aquarium is a 100 gallon 48x24x24.

 

[Colin_T]

The reason a lot of people have problems with discus is
1) Discus are vegetarian and most people feed them meat based foods. The meat rots in their digestive tract and causes internal problems. Then the fish need to be treated with metronidazole or antibiotics.

You have lots of plants in the tank and the fish can graze on them while they learn to eat new foods. The fish won't starve because unlike mammals and birds that use most of the food they eat to keep warm, most fish take their body temperature from the surrounding water so any food they eat, goes towards movement and growth.

2) Baby discus need to feed off their parents slime coat for the first few weeks of life to pick up bacteria, protozoa and other microscopic organisms that reside in the baby's gut. It's like baby mammals needing colostrum for a few days after they are born to boost their immune system and start things going. When baby discus are artificially reared (virtually all discus from fish farms are artificially reared away from their parents) they don't get the micro-organisms from their parents slime coat and end up weaker because of it. Artificially reared discus struggle for the first 6 months of their life because they miss out on the stuff from their parents mucous coating, and because they are normally fed meat based foods.

The following link has an article on wild discus and includes what they eat. It's worth a read.

the discus fish Symphysodon - SciELO - M.MOAM.INFO

Dec 22, 2008 - of the lake hosting more than a thousand discus. Only 16 of the 41 ..... ing free-swimming B. cichlae wit...

m.moam.info

 

[Ichthys]

1) Discus are vegetarian

Nope. Even the paper you linked disagrees with this. They are predominantly herbivorous but their diet varies with the seasons and also their location. When they're available, insects, insect larvae, worms and crustaceans are also eaten.
This can easily be verified by the examined stomach contents given on fishbase and nearly all studies to date. The paper you quote, while recognising discus as predominantly herbivorous, also states...

"a large proportion of discus exhibited only partially filled stomachs at low water, and... invertebrates comprised a greater fraction of their diet. During the high water period discus were usually found in open, well lit flooded forests where periphyton grows most profusely. At this time of the year, invertebrates constituted a surprisingly small volumetric component of discus diet, although they may represent a vital source of protein."

By definition, discus are not "vegetarian"".

They do generally get fed too much protein in captivity though, with beefheart being the most ridiculous choice, and presumably the most damaging to their long-term health.

 

[Back in the fold]

Reading all this , and knowing a bit more about Discus as a result , I am more convinced than ever that Discus should NOT be subjected to those such as myself . The King of Aquarium Fishes is only for the most advanced hobbyist with the space , knowledge and time to give them exactly everything that they require .

 

[Mazain]

One member from a different forum convinced me that a tank is an artificial box and you don't find O2 or CO2 in it, neither any wild fish in it. So you gota start somewhere.

 

[Ichthys]

One member from a different forum convinced me that a tank is an artificial box and you don't find O2 or CO2 in it, neither any wild fish in it. So you gota start somewhere.

Water contains dissolved oxygen and CO2, so a fishtank always contains oxygen and CO2.

Also good luck getting them to eat from the surface. Discus are not surface feeders...

 

[Mazain]

Water contains dissolved oxygen and CO2, so a fishtank always contains oxygen and CO2.

Also good luck getting them to eat from the surface. Discus are not surface feeders...

Planted tank and fish keepers would argue otherwise.

 

[Ichthys]

Planted tank and fish keepers would argue otherwise.

Theyd be very wrong so let them embarras themselves.

 

[Mazain]

Theyd be very wrong so let them embarras themselves.

How old are you?

 

[Ichthys]

How old are you?

Why?

 

[anewbie]

Water contains dissolved oxygen and CO2, so a fishtank always contains oxygen and CO2.

Also good luck getting them to eat from the surface. Discus are not surface feeders...

Actually mine do eat a lot from the surface; any worms that end up floating are quickly snatched from the top; conversely they also graze from the bottom. If they are eating insects in the wild then they almost certainly eat a certain amount of food from the surface.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

There is lots of science on Discus nutritional needs and even gut microbes. Here is but on example.

Zhang, Y., Wen, B., Meng, L.J., Gao, J.Z. and Chen, Z.Z., 2021. Dynamic changes of gut microbiota of discus fish (Symphysodon haraldi) at different feeding stages. Aquaculture, 531, p.735912.

Abstract​

Discus fish (Symphysodon haraldi) is an important ornamental fish. Owing to its unique parental care behavior, there are generally four feeding stages from fry to adult. Gut microbiota plays an important role in fish nutrition metabolism. Different food resources may potentially affect the structure and function of host intestinal microbiota. However, studies on the response of discus intestinal microbiota during feeding changes are scarce at present. Here, we determined the succession of gut microbiota of discus that were subjected to abrupt and extreme diet changes, from parental skin-mucus, Artemia nauplii, Chironomidae larvae to beef-heart hamburger, a total of four feeding stages. As diets changed, the community diversity and richness of discus intestinal microbiota first decreased, then increased, and finally decreased. Content of Firmicutes in the gut of discus gradually increased, while the level of Chloroflexi gradually decreased. The levels of Fusobacteria and Verrucomicrobia increased and then decreased, while the contents of Proteobacteria and Actinobacteria decreased and then increased. Gut bacterial community of discus feeding parental skin-mucus was significantly different from other three feeding stages. Moreover, at the stage of feeding parental skin-mucus, the predicted pathways of RNA processing and modification and extracellular structures were more enriched than those at other feeding stages. However, at the stage of feeding beef-heart hamburger, the pathways related to nutrients transport and metabolism and energy production and conversion were more enriched than those at other stages. Changes in discus intestinal microbiota might suggest their potential in adapting to different food resources.

Introduction​

Discus fish (Symphysodon haraldi) is a domesticated ornamental species and has been regarded as King of Aquarium Fishes for its disc-shaped body and bright colors (Livengood et al., 2009). Through a long-term domesticated process, natural pairing, spawning, fertilization, and hatching, the culture of discus fish has been realized in aquatic tanks (Chellappa et al., 2005; Satoh et al., 2018). Discus fish has a unique parental care behavior that newly hatched fry feed on parental skin-mucus (Buckley et al., 2010). The analysis of mucus composition shows that, similar to mammals, parents provide high quantity of nutritional and non-nutritional factors for offspring, including antibodies, essential ions, and hormones (Buckley et al., 2010). With the growth of discus, the fry begin to feed on Artemia nauplii. As they grow up, the juveniles begin to feed on Chironomidae larvae (Chong et al., 2002). When entering the adult stage, the discus mainly feed on beef-heart hamburger (Chong et al., 2002; Song et al., 2016; Wen et al., 2018). Therefore, discus fish experiences four diet stages, from fry to adult fish.
from https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0044848620319724?via=ihub
(Underlining above added by me)

 

[anewbie]

There is lots of science on Discus nutritional needs and even gut microbes. Here is but on example.

Zhang, Y., Wen, B., Meng, L.J., Gao, J.Z. and Chen, Z.Z., 2021. Dynamic changes of gut microbiota of discus fish (Symphysodon haraldi) at different feeding stages. Aquaculture, 531, p.735912.

Abstract​

Discus fish (Symphysodon haraldi) is an important ornamental fish. Owing to its unique parental care behavior, there are generally four feeding stages from fry to adult. Gut microbiota plays an important role in fish nutrition metabolism. Different food resources may potentially affect the structure and function of host intestinal microbiota. However, studies on the response of discus intestinal microbiota during feeding changes are scarce at present. Here, we determined the succession of gut microbiota of discus that were subjected to abrupt and extreme diet changes, from parental skin-mucus, Artemia nauplii, Chironomidae larvae to beef-heart hamburger, a total of four feeding stages. As diets changed, the community diversity and richness of discus intestinal microbiota first decreased, then increased, and finally decreased. Content of Firmicutes in the gut of discus gradually increased, while the level of Chloroflexi gradually decreased. The levels of Fusobacteria and Verrucomicrobia increased and then decreased, while the contents of Proteobacteria and Actinobacteria decreased and then increased. Gut bacterial community of discus feeding parental skin-mucus was significantly different from other three feeding stages. Moreover, at the stage of feeding parental skin-mucus, the predicted pathways of RNA processing and modification and extracellular structures were more enriched than those at other feeding stages. However, at the stage of feeding beef-heart hamburger, the pathways related to nutrients transport and metabolism and energy production and conversion were more enriched than those at other stages. Changes in discus intestinal microbiota might suggest their potential in adapting to different food resources.

Introduction​

Discus fish (Symphysodon haraldi) is a domesticated ornamental species and has been regarded as King of Aquarium Fishes for its disc-shaped body and bright colors (Livengood et al., 2009). Through a long-term domesticated process, natural pairing, spawning, fertilization, and hatching, the culture of discus fish has been realized in aquatic tanks (Chellappa et al., 2005; Satoh et al., 2018). Discus fish has a unique parental care behavior that newly hatched fry feed on parental skin-mucus (Buckley et al., 2010). The analysis of mucus composition shows that, similar to mammals, parents provide high quantity of nutritional and non-nutritional factors for offspring, including antibodies, essential ions, and hormones (Buckley et al., 2010). With the growth of discus, the fry begin to feed on Artemia nauplii. As they grow up, the juveniles begin to feed on Chironomidae larvae (Chong et al., 2002). When entering the adult stage, the discus mainly feed on beef-heart hamburger (Chong et al., 2002; Song et al., 2016; Wen et al., 2018). Therefore, discus fish experiences four diet stages, from fry to adult fish.
from https/www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0044848620319724?via=ihub
(Underlining above added by me)

I didn't read the article but the part you underline is of course artificial since they won't find hamburger in the wild. I think you should highlight the conclusion if any of the impact of feeding hamburger.
---
From the paper:
Discussion
This study revealed a high good coverage scores when measuring alpha diversity index, indicating that the recovered sequences were sufficient to capture the species richness of the samples (Ghanbari et al., 2015). As diets changed, however, the gut community diversity and richness of discus first decreased, then increased and finally decreased. From the stage FPS to FAN, the community diversity and richness decreased. Some researchers have found similar results on the development of zebrafish (

Conclusion
In conclusion, with the change of diets, the community diversity and richness of discus intestinal microbiota first decreased, then increased and finally decreased. Gut bacterial community at the stage FPS was significantly different from other three stages. Moreover, at the stage FPS, the predicted pathways of RNA processing and modification and extracellular structures were more enriched than those in other feeding stages. However, at the stage FBH, the pathways related to nutrients transport
---
So as far as i can tell teh paper is concluding that the fish adapted to take advantage of the nutrients provided by a different diet; but the paper doesn't seem to evaluate positive/negative impact to overall health of the fish. This would certainly indicate why discus fed beef-heart grow larger and faster but i'd like to know the actual impact on longevity and overall health.

 

[plebian]

Discus are work.

Only when they are young. Adults are just as easy to keep as any other tropical fish, though they do need warmer water. If you're worried about your electric bill, stick with colder water species.

As for plants not doing well with discus that is hogwash; discus actually prefer plants.

This is not hogwash. I don't know of any plants that do well in water that's 30C. I've grown anubias, valisneria, amazon swords, and argentine swords. They all grew but they were not what I'd call healthy. They were also algae magnets and required weekly cleaning. I'm assuming this was because of their growth was slowed by the water conditions. As I said, plants can be kept along with discus, but it's a lot more work.

Also, discus don't give a damn about plants. They spend most of the year hiding out in dead trees that have fallen into the water. The only time they see live plants is during the flood season, and those plants are all terrestrial, not aquatic. Lastly, discus have been found to inhabit rocky locations, devoid of any plants whatsoever. The fact is, most of the tropical fish in the hobby rarely see any aquatic plants, living among tree roots along the sides of streams, fallen trees and branches, leaf litter, and lots of brown algae. Others live in fast moving streams composed entirely of sand, gravel and rocks.

The reason plants are popular is mostly for human aesthetics and people seeking a way to reduce nitrate levels so they can avoid frequent water changes. The fish couldn't care less, as long as there are places where they can feel safe.

 

[anewbie]

Only when they are young. Adults are just as easy to keep as any other tropical fish, though they do need warmer water. If you're worried about your electric bill, stick with colder water species.

This is not hogwash. I don't know of any plants that do well in water that's 30C. I've grown anubias, valisneria, amazon swords, and argentine swords. They all grew but they were not what I'd call healthy. They were also algae magnets and required weekly cleaning. I'm assuming this was because of their growth was slowed by the water conditions. As I said, plants can be kept along with discus, but it's a lot more work.

Also, discus don't give a damn about plants. They spend most of the year hiding out in dead trees that have fallen into the water. The only time they see live plants is during the flood season, and those plants are all terrestrial, not aquatic. Lastly, discus have been found to inhabit rocky locations, devoid of any plants whatsoever. The fact is, most of the tropical fish in the hobby rarely see any aquatic plants, living among tree roots along the sides of streams, fallen trees and branches, leaf litter, and lots of brown algae. Others live in fast moving streams composed entirely of sand, gravel and rocks.

The reason plants are popular is mostly for human aesthetics and people seeking a way to reduce nitrate levels so they can avoid frequent water changes. The fish couldn't care less, as long as there are places where they can feel safe.

As for work; i muck with the plants optionally once a month. All the species are growing very quickly; they include vals, various Echinodorus, various crypts and a. cripus. You are correct they don't give a damn about plants specific (though they will graze on plant matter); but you should either provide plants or other tall barriers they can hide among. In my case the first week or so they hid among the vals on the right which are around 14 to 16 inches high (peak). Now they are always in the open.

It is true that not all plants grow well at 82-84; just pick the right species. However you are also correct that plants are optional but providing some areas where they can hide will make them feel more secure.