What are you doing today?

[Oldspartan]

Being sick is inconvenient to say nothing of unpleasant.

Get well be well

 

[JackGulley]

Feel better soon. Is there another name for antelope?

Pronghorn antelope are what we have in America. Fun fact: they aren’t actually part of the true antelope family (which includes the African species we call “antelope”, like gazelle and wildebeest, but also technically includes cows, sheep, and goats!). Pronghorns are the only extant species of their own family, Antilocapridae, which is actually more closely related to giraffes!

 

[JackGulley]

They’re also the second-fastest land animal after cheetahs, at 55 mph.

 

[WhistlingBadger]

Pronghorn antelope are what we have in America. Fun fact: they aren’t actually part of the true antelope family (which includes the African species we call “antelope”, like gazelle and wildebeest, but also technically includes cows, sheep, and goats!). Pronghorns are the only extant species of their own family, Antilocapridae, which is actually more closely related to giraffes!

I just found out about the giraffe/okapi relation a year or two ago, and it kind of blew my mind. Here's a couple more fun facts:

Pronghorns have been clocked at 55 mph (I'm pretty sure I've seen them top 60). They aren't one-trick sprinters like cheetahs, though. They are such efficient runners that they can maintain almost-top-speed for miles with no signs of exhaustion. This when their fastest modern predators top out in the low to mid 40s.

Why? Pronghorns are thought to be a relic of an ecosystem that doesn't exist anymore. Scientists have found fossils of North American cheetahs, lions, jaguars, long-legged bears, and dire wolves (all bigger and presumably faster than their modern kin), and most terrifyingly, a sort of super hyena that had enormous teeth, probably hunted in packs, and was probably capable of cheetah-like speeds.

Now all those super predators are gone, and we're left with a souped-up, overpowered herbivore that is untouchable once it's out of infancy. And what do they do with this speed now? Race with my truck, mostly.

 

[JackGulley]

And what do they do with this speed now? Race with my truck, mostly.

 

[jaylach]

Gttt! Right now I'm ticked about the prey/predator discussion. Don't get me wrong as I find nothing wrong with anything that has been said here at all. While not radical I'm a bit of a tree huger by nature and am disgusted by how we treat wildlife in general, especially predators. Last spring/summer two bears were killed as they came into the area for the second time. First visit they tag and relocate into the mountains. If they come back down they are dead. What are these beasties supposed to do as we keep taking away their natural habitat?

Take the case of one bear last year. Basically my back yard is a nature reserve with around 30-40 feet of lawn between my apartments and the reserve. During the late spring to late fall you can't even see the large creek that borders the reserve due to reeds and other foliage. Can't cut the stuff down as it is part of the reserve yet a bear is killed within the preserve. This is such hypocrisy! Sure, there is the argument that bear in the area is a danger to the human population but, in both bear deaths last year, it was reported that if a human was in the area the bear would run away.

So what is the answer? I actually have one. Don't put a visiting bear back in the mountains as the critter wants food and WILL come back to die. Take them by helicopter air lift to Yellowstone. Bears already there either accept them, they become loners or are killed by the present bears but at least they have a chance and it too far away to make it likely that they would return to the local area.

It is like several years ago when the local white tail deer population sort of exploded. The cops were brought in to kill the majority of the herd as people were complaining about them ruining gardens. Come on people... grow a heart. Dang, the killed deer weren't even butchered to feed people in need. They were were just destroyed.

I have nothing against hunting as it is no longer possible for the remaining predators to control prey animal populations and they will suffer worse deaths due to starvation if not weeded out but I can't stomach the 'trophy hunter' that will cut off antlers or the head to mount and leave the rest to rot.

OK, this became a rant and it is over...

 

[WhistlingBadger]

Gttt! Right now I'm ticked about the prey/predator discussion. Don't get me wrong as I find nothing wrong with anything that has been said here at all. While not radical I'm a bit of a tree huger by nature and am disgusted by how we treat wildlife in general, especially predators. Last spring/summer two bears were killed as they came into the area for the second time. First visit they tag and relocate into the mountains. If they come back down they are dead. What are these beasties supposed to do as we keep taking away their natural habitat?

Take the case of one bear last year. Basically my back yard is a nature reserve with around 30-40 feet of lawn between my apartments and the reserve. During the late spring to late fall you can't even see the large creek that borders the reserve due to reeds and other foliage. Can't cut the stuff down as it is part of the reserve yet a bear is killed within the preserve. This is such hypocrisy! Sure, there is the argument that bear in the area is a danger to the human population but, in both bear deaths last year, it was reported that if a human was in the area the bear would run away.

So what is the answer? I actually have one. Don't put a visiting bear back in the mountains as the critter wants food and WILL come back to die. Take them by helicopter air lift to Yellowstone. Bears already there either accept them, they become loners or are killed by the present bears but at least they have a chance and it too far away to make it likely that they would return to the local area.

It is like several years ago when the local white tail deer population sort of exploded. The cops were brought in to kill the majority of the herd as people were complaining about them ruining gardens. Come on people... grow a heart. Dang, the killed deer weren't even butchered to feed people in need. They were were just destroyed.

I have nothing against hunting as it is no longer possible for the remaining predators to control prey animal populations and they will suffer worse deaths due to starvation if not weeded out but I can't stomach the 'trophy hunter' that will cut off antlers or the head to mount and leave the rest to rot.

OK, this became a rant and it is over...

Yeah. There's a lot here worth thinking about, Jay. Part of the problem is that wild animals and humans tend to like similar habitats, and they keep making more people, and they aren't making any more habitat. They gotta live somewhere, but so do we. I have no plans to burn down my house and turn it back into wildlife habitat.

Airlifting the bears to Yellowstone would be a death sentence, if I understand correctly how bears work. Each bear needs a certain amount of clearly-defined territory to live its life, and all the territories in Yellowstone and the Tetons are full. (That's why we get occasional wandering grizzlies even down this far--they've been pushed out and they're just looking for places to settle) Plus a bear that is acclimated to think that people = food is still going to find plenty of trouble in Yellowstone. So it would probably be more humane just to euthanize them, as much as I hate to see that happen.

I hate that story about culling the whitetails and leaving the meat unused. Shameful. Sure, they can overpopulate "people" areas and need their populations reduced to avoid disease, starvation, and human encounters. But killing them and wasting the meat is just foolish and wasteful.

And ah, the "trophy hunter" who kills for the head and leaves the meat to rot. I hate that too. In every country in the world civilized enough to have game management laws, such hunting is illegal: Hunters are required by law to use the meat. (Exceptions are animals that are primarily fur bearers and not considered good to eat, which is probably a whole different discussion; and in Africa, where the meat is generally used in camp and/or donated to local villagers)

Legal or not, it still happens, and most law-abiding hunters probably hate those guys even more than you do. But please do me a favor: Don't call them "trophy hunters." Call them "poachers." Trophy hunting can be legit, legal, ethical, and respectful to the animal. It just means passing up smaller animals and holding out for a big one. It's a way of challenging oneself, just like my habit of hunting with primitive gear. The meat is still used and enjoyed; there's just the bonus of a beautiful set of antlers on the wall too.

 

[WhistlingBadger]

Gttt! Right now I'm ticked about the prey/predator discussion. Don't get me wrong as I find nothing wrong with anything that has been said here at all. While not radical I'm a bit of a tree huger by nature and am disgusted by how we treat wildlife in general, especially predators. Last spring/summer two bears were killed as they came into the area for the second time. First visit they tag and relocate into the mountains. If they come back down they are dead. What are these beasties supposed to do as we keep taking away their natural habitat?

Take the case of one bear last year. Basically my back yard is a nature reserve with around 30-40 feet of lawn between my apartments and the reserve. During the late spring to late fall you can't even see the large creek that borders the reserve due to reeds and other foliage. Can't cut the stuff down as it is part of the reserve yet a bear is killed within the preserve. This is such hypocrisy! Sure, there is the argument that bear in the area is a danger to the human population but, in both bear deaths last year, it was reported that if a human was in the area the bear would run away.

So what is the answer? I actually have one. Don't put a visiting bear back in the mountains as the critter wants food and WILL come back to die. Take them by helicopter air lift to Yellowstone. Bears already there either accept them, they become loners or are killed by the present bears but at least they have a chance and it too far away to make it likely that they would return to the local area.

It is like several years ago when the local white tail deer population sort of exploded. The cops were brought in to kill the majority of the herd as people were complaining about them ruining gardens. Come on people... grow a heart. Dang, the killed deer weren't even butchered to feed people in need. They were were just destroyed.

I have nothing against hunting as it is no longer possible for the remaining predators to control prey animal populations and they will suffer worse deaths due to starvation if not weeded out but I can't stomach the 'trophy hunter' that will cut off antlers or the head to mount and leave the rest to rot.

OK, this became a rant and it is over...

Also, predators are awesome (in the true sense of the word). From a weasel to a golden eagle to a grizzly. I never get tired of seeing them, watching them, and learning from them. We have to manage them to keep people safe. But I love seeing them.

 

[Alice B]

I just watch my red tailed hawks and my coyotes, that's about my speed. and what live around here

 

[WhistlingBadger]

I just watch my red tailed hawks and my coyotes, that's about my speed. and what live around here

I respect coyotes. Those things are SURVIVORS! Pretty good singers, too.

 

[Alice B]

They are good singers. and they are nature's cleanup crew. Had an elderly neighbor back in 2001 to 2005 that fed the feral cats and abandoned cats. There were about 120 in the neighborhood by the time her son assisted her to assisted living. In 2006 the coyotes came thru. It was sad but necessary. After they got the population down to 1 cat, I caught her and got her fixed, I've done TNR ever since and the population is never over 3 or 4. The one eating on my porch I got fixed in 2017. She's a survivor, at the moment stalking the roof because apparently there is a rat....

 

[jaylach]

Yeah. There's a lot here worth thinking about, Jay. Part of the problem is that wild animals and humans tend to like similar habitats, and they keep making more people, and they aren't making any more habitat. They gotta live somewhere, but so do we. I have no plans to burn down my house and turn it back into wildlife habitat.

Airlifting the bears to Yellowstone would be a death sentence, if I understand correctly how bears work. Each bear needs a certain amount of clearly-defined territory to live its life, and all the territories in Yellowstone and the Tetons are full. (That's why we get occasional wandering grizzlies even down this far--they've been pushed out and they're just looking for places to settle) Plus a bear that is acclimated to think that people = food is still going to find plenty of trouble in Yellowstone. So it would probably be more humane just to euthanize them, as much as I hate to see that happen.

I hate that story about culling the whitetails and leaving the meat unused. Shameful. Sure, they can overpopulate "people" areas and need their populations reduced to avoid disease, starvation, and human encounters. But killing them and wasting the meat is just foolish and wasteful.

And ah, the "trophy hunter" who kills for the head and leaves the meat to rot. I hate that too. In every country in the world civilized enough to have game management laws, such hunting is illegal: Hunters are required by law to use the meat. (Exceptions are animals that are primarily fur bearers and not considered good to eat, which is probably a whole different discussion; and in Africa, where the meat is generally used in camp and/or donated to local villagers)

Legal or not, it still happens, and most law-abiding hunters probably hate those guys even more than you do. But please do me a favor: Don't call them "trophy hunters." Call them "poachers." Trophy hunting can be legit, legal, ethical, and respectful to the animal. It just means passing up smaller animals and holding out for a big one. It's a way of challenging oneself, just like my habit of hunting with primitive gear. The meat is still used and enjoyed; there's just the bonus of a beautiful set of antlers on the wall too.

Oh I know all that Badger and I know that my Yellowstone solution is probably not feasible even though I've seen videos of black bears fishing together for salmon. You mentioned grisly but I'm talking blacks. The reason that my Yellowstone solution is not feasible is not due the the introduced bear being outright killed by other bears but, rather that it would cost a lot to air lift the beastie. Blacks are actually very good parents and seem to pretty readily be willing to take on a young that is not their own. Both blacks killed here last year were yearlings.

While a grisly are not, blacks are actually somewhat social and will interact in groups with adults even 'mentoring' young from another group.

You MAY find this worth a read. Oddly blacks, and bears in general, are not even truly territorial.

Bear Behaviour - Understanding black and grizzly bears - BearSmart.com

The more you can learn about bears and bear behaviour, the less likely you will be to have a negative encounter or misinterpret interactions.

www.bearsmart.com

 

[Oldspartan]

Gttt! Right now I'm ticked about the prey/predator discussion. Don't get me wrong as I find nothing wrong with anything that has been said here at all. While not radical I'm a bit of a tree huger by nature and am disgusted by how we treat wildlife in general, especially predators. Last spring/summer two bears were killed as they came into the area for the second time. First visit they tag and relocate into the mountains. If they come back down they are dead. What are these beasties supposed to do as we keep taking away their natural habitat?

Take the case of one bear last year. Basically my back yard is a nature reserve with around 30-40 feet of lawn between my apartments and the reserve. During the late spring to late fall you can't even see the large creek that borders the reserve due to reeds and other foliage. Can't cut the stuff down as it is part of the reserve yet a bear is killed within the preserve. This is such hypocrisy! Sure, there is the argument that bear in the area is a danger to the human population but, in both bear deaths last year, it was reported that if a human was in the area the bear would run away.

So what is the answer? I actually have one. Don't put a visiting bear back in the mountains as the critter wants food and WILL come back to die. Take them by helicopter air lift to Yellowstone. Bears already there either accept them, they become loners or are killed by the present bears but at least they have a chance and it too far away to make it likely that they would return to the local area.

It is like several years ago when the local white tail deer population sort of exploded. The cops were brought in to kill the majority of the herd as people were complaining about them ruining gardens. Come on people... grow a heart. Dang, the killed deer weren't even butchered to feed people in need. They were were just destroyed.

I have nothing against hunting as it is no longer possible for the remaining predators to control prey animal populations and they will suffer worse deaths due to starvation if not weeded out but I can't stomach the 'trophy hunter' that will cut off antlers or the head to mount and leave the rest to rot.

OK, this became a rant and it is over...

I am in general agreement with some exceptions. My property is my territory, and I am the apex predator within its boundaries. I am willing to share it with most wildlife and actually take measures to encourage them visiting. I do not mind predators sliding through so long as they do not come into my personal space defined as the portion of the property that is in human use. I do not allow prey animals in this space either generally. The garden is to feed me. In the past we had livestock, again to feed me and mine, not stray predators. I put up with rabbits, squirrels and such in the personal space because Linda says they are cute, they are, and she protects her garden from them and plants things such as clover, lettuce, and other various plants for them at the fringes of our space.

We live at the foot of the mountain and our property is subject the occasional black bear, bobcat, coyote, and lately a pack of coy dog. If they stay in the so called back 40 they are not subject to my ire. If they trespass on the area I use, my space, they are subject to a hierarchy of action, starting with passive measures, ending with final solutions. This was once necessary to provide safety to our livestock and now to provide safety to my grandchildren and pets.

Human space is human space and although it is a negative the growing need for human space is a negative for wildlife it is a fact of life.

I am in favor of preserves where necessary, probably needed in almost every rural area. I live on the fringes of the Adirondack Park and although I believe it is overly oppressive, I generally support its overall need. I will enjoy the deer, with the occasional harvest, and other prey animals and accept the predator with a wary eye in their place. I get to choose where their space is in my little world though.

 

[Oldspartan]

Up early today, even for me. The bedroom is not airconditioned because Linda does not like A/C where she sleeps. Me, on the other hand, has a problem sleeping in the heat and the next two days will be spent sleeping in the living room. Should have done so last night.

Temp was 88 with heavy humidity by 10AM yesterday and reached 97 by afternoon, (real feel was 102F), still mid 70's as I type. Today and tomorrow will be even hotter and more humid. Too hot for puttering outside or in the shop, besides today is the day for my monthly meet-up with some friends I graduated high school with for a drink and few games of billiards.

This is a day to lay low and stay cool.

 

[jaylach]

I am in general agreement with some exceptions. My property is my territory, and I am the apex predator within its boundaries. I am willing to share it with most wildlife and actually take measures to encourage them visiting. I do not mind predators sliding through so long as they do not come into my personal space defined as the portion of the property that is in human use. I do not allow prey animals in this space either generally. The garden is to feed me. In the past we had livestock, again to feed me and mine, not stray predators. I put up with rabbits, squirrels and such in the personal space because Linda says they are cute, they are, and she protects her garden from them and plants things such as clover, lettuce, and other various plants for them at the fringes of our space.

We live at the foot of the mountain and our property is subject the occasional black bear, bobcat, coyote, and lately a pack of coy dog. If they stay in the so called back 40 they are not subject to my ire. If they trespass on the area I use, my space, they are subject to a hierarchy of action, starting with passive measures, ending with final solutions. This was once necessary to provide safety to our livestock and now to provide safety to my grandchildren and pets.

Human space is human space and although it is a negative the growing need for human space is a negative for wildlife it is a fact of life.

I am in favor of preserves where necessary, probably needed in almost every rural area. I live on the fringes of the Adirondack Park and although I believe it is overly oppressive, I generally support its overall need. I will enjoy the deer, with the occasional harvest, and other prey animals and accept the predator with a wary eye in their place. I get to choose where their space is in my little world though.

Your property was the property of the critters we are destroying well before we were even here. It is our human arrogance that makes us believe that we are so much more important than the species we are making extinct. What happens when we finally kill the last predator? The answer is quite likely that we caused our own extinction.

We present ourselves as the top intelligence on mother earth but I consider us one of the least intelligent. What other species other than humans actively strives to destroy the environment that keeps us alive? Ya, we have all kinds of technology but, as a race, we have zero common sense. As a species I kind of consider us humans as a parasite or virus bleeding the life out of our home.