Thought You Might Like To Know......

[LionessN3cubs]

That my ammonia dropped!!!!!!

Last night hubby said it was a lil lighter...I wasn't sure tho. This afternoon I was almost positive....tonight I am 100% sure. It didnt go down MUCH...from 2 to 1 ppm...but woohoo. I expect to get up in the am to almost 0. I test twice today because I was afraid that it would process all the ammonia and then die off because I didnt add more...and it dropped even from this afternoon yay!


guess that'll learn me to be so impatient huh? LOL

 

[backtotropical]

Don't like to say i told you so, but.............................................

 

[2excitedkids]

Happy days!!

 

[waterdrop]

Congratulations Lioness!

Those bacteria just needed to cook for a while!

I notice in your message that you sound concerned about having the bacteria die off... your next "patience" assignment is to make yourself wait each day and only feed them ammonia -once- a day. ----It is tempting to feel you must feed them whenever the ammonia test gets down to zero, but feeding them multiple times within 24 hours will allow them to produce more nitrite than is optimal for growth of the "N-bacs", the nitrite-oxidizing-bacteria.

But first you must concentrate on measuring the time-period within which your new "A-bac" population is able to process all the ammonia. Figure out two test times in the day when you will be available to test that will tell you whether the ammonia is gone within 10-12 hours - that is the goal for the "A-bac" population size.

(Know you know this, just never hurts to reinforce..)
~~waterdrop~~

 

[LionessN3cubs]

Congratulations Lioness!

Those bacteria just needed to cook for a while!

I notice in your message that you sound concerned about having the bacteria die off... your next "patience" assignment is to make yourself wait each day and only feed them ammonia -once- a day. ----It is tempting to feel you must feed them whenever the ammonia test gets down to zero, but feeding them multiple times within 24 hours will allow them to produce more nitrite than is optimal for growth of the "N-bacs", the nitrite-oxidizing-bacteria.

But first you must concentrate on measuring the time-period within which your new "A-bac" population is able to process all the ammonia. Figure out two test times in the day when you will be available to test that will tell you whether the ammonia is gone within 10-12 hours - that is the goal for the "A-bac" population size.

(Know you know this, just never hurts to reinforce..)
~~waterdrop~~

actually I didnt know that waterdrop so thank you. The pinned article on fishless cycling doesnt say just once a day...it says whenever it drops to zero so that is exactly what I intended to do!

 

[LionessN3cubs]

Now I'll start keeping a log LOL


Day 16 ammonia .50
added 1 ml ammonia
ammonia 2-3 ppm

 

[waterdrop]

Congratulations Lioness!

Those bacteria just needed to cook for a while!

I notice in your message that you sound concerned about having the bacteria die off... your next "patience" assignment is to make yourself wait each day and only feed them ammonia -once- a day. ----It is tempting to feel you must feed them whenever the ammonia test gets down to zero, but feeding them multiple times within 24 hours will allow them to produce more nitrite than is optimal for growth of the "N-bacs", the nitrite-oxidizing-bacteria.

But first you must concentrate on measuring the time-period within which your new "A-bac" population is able to process all the ammonia. Figure out two test times in the day when you will be available to test that will tell you whether the ammonia is gone within 10-12 hours - that is the goal for the "A-bac" population size.

(Know you know this, just never hurts to reinforce..)
~~waterdrop~~

actually I didnt know that waterdrop so thank you. The pinned article on fishless cycling doesnt say just once a day...it says whenever it drops to zero so that is exactly what I intended to do!

Yeah, its tricky, you don't want multiple adds to add up to 7-8ppm or above of ammonia.

 

[pastabake]

Way to go, fingers crossed that the next stage goes smoothly.

 

[LionessN3cubs]

Congratulations Lioness!

Those bacteria just needed to cook for a while!

I notice in your message that you sound concerned about having the bacteria die off... your next "patience" assignment is to make yourself wait each day and only feed them ammonia -once- a day. ----It is tempting to feel you must feed them whenever the ammonia test gets down to zero, but feeding them multiple times within 24 hours will allow them to produce more nitrite than is optimal for growth of the "N-bacs", the nitrite-oxidizing-bacteria.

But first you must concentrate on measuring the time-period within which your new "A-bac" population is able to process all the ammonia. Figure out two test times in the day when you will be available to test that will tell you whether the ammonia is gone within 10-12 hours - that is the goal for the "A-bac" population size.

(Know you know this, just never hurts to reinforce..)
~~waterdrop~~

actually I didnt know that waterdrop so thank you. The pinned article on fishless cycling doesnt say just once a day...it says whenever it drops to zero so that is exactly what I intended to do!

Yeah, its tricky, you don't want multiple adds to add up to 7-8ppm or above of ammonia.

Okay so if tomorrow at 8 am I test and its near 0...I add whatever Im going to add...and then just ignore it until the next morning? what if it starts dropping to 0 in a couple hours like someone elses was? wont they die off if I wait until 8 am the next day to feed them again?

 

[waterdrop]

Congratulations Lioness!

Those bacteria just needed to cook for a while!

I notice in your message that you sound concerned about having the bacteria die off... your next "patience" assignment is to make yourself wait each day and only feed them ammonia -once- a day. ----It is tempting to feel you must feed them whenever the ammonia test gets down to zero, but feeding them multiple times within 24 hours will allow them to produce more nitrite than is optimal for growth of the "N-bacs", the nitrite-oxidizing-bacteria.

But first you must concentrate on measuring the time-period within which your new "A-bac" population is able to process all the ammonia. Figure out two test times in the day when you will be available to test that will tell you whether the ammonia is gone within 10-12 hours - that is the goal for the "A-bac" population size.

(Know you know this, just never hurts to reinforce..)
~~waterdrop~~

actually I didnt know that waterdrop so thank you. The pinned article on fishless cycling doesnt say just once a day...it says whenever it drops to zero so that is exactly what I intended to do!

Yeah, its tricky, you don't want multiple adds to add up to 7-8ppm or above of ammonia.

Okay so if tomorrow at 8 am I test and its near 0...I add whatever Im going to add...and then just ignore it until the next morning? what if it starts dropping to 0 in a couple hours like someone elses was? wont they die off if I wait until 8 am the next day to feed them again?

Yup, there is no doubt that we are now getting to know you Lioness! I -knew- you'd freeqq. OK, let's get this straight. Hopefully BTT or someone will back me up and verify that I sound right on this. First you need to understand that despite it seeming so delicate and taking so much time to get there, your bacteria are pretty tuff and are not going to go away easily. There is numerous documentation out there that when their food source, the ammonia, runs out, only a -very few-, only 1% or maybe at most 5% might die off after maybe 48 hours of nothing. You are not going to lose your main bacteria colony by waiting for the next morning! RDD's system takes advantage of this minimum colony maintenance level so that in the second stage you can start to grow the more difficult "N-bacs" and be able to see if you are starting to get some drops in Nitrite. I had to dig through a lot of threads but finally found one where he was responding to a beginner and verified that you just want this maintenance level of ammonia for the "A-bacs" during the 2nd stage when you are getting large amounts of nitrite showing up in the tests.

Again -- I don't think you are quite at this stage yet, right? You are getting an ammonia drop, but it may be taking 3 days. First you need to keep putting in, I'd say, 4ppm of ammonia and trying to prove to yourself that the 4ppm is getting processed down to 0ppm within 10 to 12 -hours- (not 3 days.) Only after you've proved to yourself that your "A-bacs" can process the 4ppm down in that half day can you then proceed to the second stage where you will ease back down to only, say, 2ppm maintenance ammonia.

Sorry, looking back, that sounds complicated, but it shouldn't be... ~~waterdrop~~
ps. So quick review: Whatever amount of ammonia you add, only add it once per day. Currently your amount you are adding may only be 2 or 3ppm, but if your ammonia test is now dropping to zero, then I'm suggesting you can ease the daily add amount back up to 4ppm so that you can prove that 4ppm was dropped to 0ppm within 10-12 hours. Then after that proof, you can drop your add amount way back down to 2ppm per day so that fewer Nitrites are produced and you can see better whether they are dropping. (I'm sure will discuss further.)

 

[LionessN3cubs]

I just wanted to say a big fat THANK YOU to all of you who have been so SUPER patient with me and my LACK OF patience!!! I really appreciate all the help and time you all have given me. Im sure it may be a bit obvious to some that I have an obsessive streak a mile wide but I promise now that I have a start ...that nasty little obsessive monster in me will be tamed a bit . Again, Just a HUGE thank you to waterdrop, backtotropical, tolak, miss wiggle, and EVERYONE else that took the time to encourage and help me get this party started.

 

[backtotropical]

Hi Lioness,

I agree with Waterdrop. Concentrate on getting 4ppm of ammonia processed in under 12 hrs, and then move on to the next stage.

This should make some interesting reading for you on why to cut back on ammonia when encouraging the "N-Bacs". Hope you don't mind that i cut and pasted. Bear in mind that the original poster who i am replying to was in the 2nd stage of the cycle.

Just to clarify for you, Nitrosomonas is the ammonia oxidising bacteria (AOB) found in our tanks, and Nitrospira is the nitrite oxidising bacteria (NOB) (I don't like that particular abbreviation for obvious reasons).

Nitrobacter is also an NOB, and is the one which was universally thought to inhabit our aquariums for many years until Hovanec proved otherwise not so long ago. Most literature you will read refers to Nitrobacter, as was thought to be correct at the time of writing. Only fairly new literature will speak of Nitrospira in our aquarium filters.

With regard to your cycling, I recommend that you should do large water changes to lower your nitrite to a measurable level. The AOB will turn 5ppm of ammonia into 13.5ppm of nitrite (the ratio of ammonia : nitrite : nitrate is 1 : 2.7 : 3.7 or to be more precise 17 : 46 : 62), so each time you top up to 5ppm and the AOB process that ammonia, you are adding another 13.5ppm of nitrite. As you can imagine, nitrite soon reaches 100ppm+.

If you have say 13.5ppm of nitrite in your water rather than 135ppm, the bacteria will process it back to 0 quicker, and thus a big water change will allow nitrite to fall to 0 sooner, speeding up your cycle. Leaving huge quantities of nitrite in the water only prolongs the cycle and is completely unnecessary. Your filter could already be cycled and you'll have no idea as it has such a backlog of nitrite to clear. You could be thinking the nitrite still hasn't moved as it is unmeasurable with your test kit and all you see is that it is off the scale.

I agree with Colin that cutting back the ammonia meantime will help speed things up too as it will minimise the build up of nitrite. Try topping up to only 2ppm once per day, and as soon as you see movement in the nitrite, crank ammonia back up to 5ppm to give the AOB time to catch up again (it will only take around 24hrs for the AOB to catch up again as they can double in around 24hrs).

Also, crank up the temperature to between 30 - 32C and maximise surface agitation to facilitate the best possible oxygen supply.

Hope this helps mate.

Cheers

BTT

Also, as it is playing on your mind, here is a good discussion on how quickly the filter bacteria will die off.

As Waterdrop says, they are really quite tough.

HTH

BTT

 

[LionessN3cubs]

Hi Lioness,

I agree with Waterdrop. Concentrate on getting 4ppm of ammonia processed in under 12 hrs, and then move on to the next stage.

This should make some interesting reading for you on why to cut back on ammonia when encouraging the "N-Bacs". Hope you don't mind that i cut and pasted. Bear in mind that the original poster who i am replying to was in the 2nd stage of the cycle.

Just to clarify for you, Nitrosomonas is the ammonia oxidising bacteria (AOB) found in our tanks, and Nitrospira is the nitrite oxidising bacteria (NOB) (I don't like that particular abbreviation for obvious reasons).

Nitrobacter is also an NOB, and is the one which was universally thought to inhabit our aquariums for many years until Hovanec proved otherwise not so long ago. Most literature you will read refers to Nitrobacter, as was thought to be correct at the time of writing. Only fairly new literature will speak of Nitrospira in our aquarium filters.

With regard to your cycling, I recommend that you should do large water changes to lower your nitrite to a measurable level. The AOB will turn 5ppm of ammonia into 13.5ppm of nitrite (the ratio of ammonia : nitrite : nitrate is 1 : 2.7 : 3.7 or to be more precise 17 : 46 : 62), so each time you top up to 5ppm and the AOB process that ammonia, you are adding another 13.5ppm of nitrite. As you can imagine, nitrite soon reaches 100ppm+.

If you have say 13.5ppm of nitrite in your water rather than 135ppm, the bacteria will process it back to 0 quicker, and thus a big water change will allow nitrite to fall to 0 sooner, speeding up your cycle. Leaving huge quantities of nitrite in the water only prolongs the cycle and is completely unnecessary. Your filter could already be cycled and you'll have no idea as it has such a backlog of nitrite to clear. You could be thinking the nitrite still hasn't moved as it is unmeasurable with your test kit and all you see is that it is off the scale.

I agree with Colin that cutting back the ammonia meantime will help speed things up too as it will minimise the build up of nitrite. Try topping up to only 2ppm once per day, and as soon as you see movement in the nitrite, crank ammonia back up to 5ppm to give the AOB time to catch up again (it will only take around 24hrs for the AOB to catch up again as they can double in around 24hrs).

Also, crank up the temperature to between 30 - 32C and maximise surface agitation to facilitate the best possible oxygen supply.

Hope this helps mate.

Cheers

BTT

Also, as it is playing on your mind, here is a good discussion on how quickly the filter bacteria will die off.

As Waterdrop says, they are really quite tough.

HTH

BTT

Hmmm....mind if I recap this to make sure I understand?

Once the AOB's are processing a decent amount of ammonia in 12 hours, I will have a nitrite spike. Once I notice that the spike is coming down...I should do a big water change and cut back the amount of ammonia to 2ppm. According to what he's saying, NOT doing the water change is kinda leaving the NOB's with a sinkful of dishes to wash and no help with putting them away making the chore take longer than it should have to

 

[LionessN3cubs]

::::doing happy dance:::::: earlier this afternoon I dosed the ammonia up to roughly 4ppm (chart is hard for me to be exact) ....tonight its down to 1 already AND I have nitrites! Yayyyyyyyyyy

 

[kharma2815]

That my ammonia dropped!!!!!!

Last night hubby said it was a lil lighter...I wasn't sure tho. This afternoon I was almost positive....tonight I am 100% sure. It didnt go down MUCH...from 2 to 1 ppm...but woohoo. I expect to get up in the am to almost 0. I test twice today because I was afraid that it would process all the ammonia and then die off because I didnt add more...and it dropped even from this afternoon yay!


guess that'll learn me to be so impatient huh? LOL

Yay!