The Nitrate Debate

[jag51186]

I really don't think 40 ppm is that bad Akasha. I would bet a lot of your nitrates come from the frequency of feeding, since you feed twice daily. Mine decreased quite dramatically with every other day feeding. But, I know you feed twice daily to help keep your angels from turning your tetras into snacks...which is completely understandable. Just my thoughts.

 

[Akasha72]

yes, I think you might be right and I've now cut down a bit - the cory pellets especially as I do tend to throw in far too much. You are right in that I feed well to keep the angels full. It's the oto's I worry about the most as I've read the horror stories about them getting stuck in angels mouths. The last thing I want is to get up one morning and find a dead angel with an oto sticking out of it's mouth. Once the oto's die off I won't be replacing them.
 
I'm hoping when I move home to have the space for two tanks again. I can then set about seperating my stock. Curviceps can be moved away from the angels as he's struggling with their boisterousness and he can live with my harlequins and oto's. The angels can remain in the big tank with the larger tetra's and cories. 
 
All that said, I'm a bit concerned about my male angel at the moment. He's taken to hiding a lot and I'm worried he's not well. I plan to dunk their food in epsom salt this coming week. I've not seen him eat for a couple of days 

 

[Akasha72]

I've now changed a further 60 litres of water as the male angel is still hiding. I've added some red bush tea for stress relief and also to see if the darker water will bring him out of hiding.
The lights are on now and he is coming out until the female goes near and then he's off to hide again. I think they've had a falling out!
 
Just a quick question though. He is coming out when the lights are out ... could my aging light tubes have something to do with it? I can't remember exactly how old they are but they are over 6 months old for sure

 

[Byron]

Just a quick question though. He is coming out when the lights are out ... could my aging light tubes have something to do with it? I can't remember exactly how old they are but they are over 6 months old for sure

 
Not likely.  As fluorescent tubes burn (the phosphors inside), the light intensity lessens.  This would affect plants (and algae) eventually, but as the light is dimming this cannot be bad for fish.
 
I replace my tubes every 12 months.  I let a couple tanks go longer, deliberately, to see what might happen, and around 16-18 months I noticed an increase of algae issues and a lessening of plant growth.  These were good quality tubes, Life-Glo actually, which are better made than some, but it showed to my satisfaction that tubes do decrease intensity and at some point it is too much for things to continue.  Every reputable planted tank author has written much the same, so there is not much debate.
 
Byron.

 

[Akasha72]

thanks Byron, I tend to change the tubes when they blow. When I change them again I'll write to date on them somewhere so I know how old they actually are. I am starting to get some algae but nothing too severe. 
 
Meanwhile my male angel is still in hiding. He did come out a bit last night and I was watching him closely. His fins are a mess and he's swimming away from the female. I think she's got too intense with him and he's fed up of her so he's hiding to get away from her. There's not much I can do about that. They chose each other but it's not a great relationship.
 
I'm about to test me nitrates again and I'll post the result

 

[Akasha72]

Nitrate = no change. My test is flawed. Of that much I am certain now. This tank has virtually had nearly all it's water changed over 3 days and it should be showing barely anything in Nitrate.
 
So this is a lesson for us all. When you do a Nitrate test take the result with a large pinch of salt

 

[glolite]

Hi guys, can I join in this debate please? Have been keeping freshwater tropical fish for over 10 years now.  My tap water tests at 40ppm so when I do water changes I double dose with seachem prime but my tanks always read high, like top end red colour on the API kit. Would anyone recommend purigen for lowering nitrates in this case? My ammonia and nitrites are always zero and I do 25 to 30 % water changes weekly.
 
Today I did a 60% water change followed immediately by a 50% on my mbuna tank but nitrates still in the red. My internal and external filters are cleaned regularly and touch wood, all my fish seem in good health. Also, because most of my fish are mature adults I only feed on alternate days.
 
I know one member said not to worry about nitrates but with such high readings I wonder if it is possible to bring them down when my tap water is high to begin with.

 

[Akasha72]

of course you can join the debate (or rather more of a chatter!) that's why I started this. I can't be the only member confused about nitrates!

 

[glolite]

Thanks, it's very confusing even years of fish keeping. There are so many products on the market now but I have always tried to rely on water changes rather than chemicals. I'm just off to test again though as another thread mentioned shaking bottle 2 of the API kit for two minutes not the 30 seconds as per instruction leaflet. Apparently this can lead to false high readings of nitrate.

 

[Akasha72]

this seems to be the problem as I've proved. I used to use the API kit but decided to spend a bit more on the JBL kit in the hope that the Nitrate test was better but it's just as unreliable as the API one!!

 

[Byron]

Glolite...yes, shake regent #2 for 2 minutes.  It is (or was) common to have inaccurate and high readings if this is not done.  I use the API kit myself.
 
Second, on Prime and test results.  Prime will bind nitrate somehow (Seachem themselves have told me they do not know exactly how this happens) but test kits will still show the "bound" nitrate as nitrate, so it won't "disappear" on the test.  But Prime is only effective at this for 24-36 hours, after which the nitrate again becomes toxic.
 
Third, if you do find after retests that nitrates really are this high, I would consider ways to lower them.  You mention rift lake cichlids, and over on the cichlid site one of their authors suggests that nitrates, and not diet, may be responsible for the condition known as Malawi bloat.  Nitrates do seem to impact cichlids, as Neale Monks has also written more than once, and they should be kept no higher than 20 ppm (this is using our test kits).
 
You can ascertain the likely nitrates in your tap water from your water authority who probably have a website and water data may be posted.  That will tell you how accurate (or not) your tests are on the tap water itself.  If anyone wants to confirm aquarium nitrate tests, take a sample to a reliable fish store and ask them to test it for nitrate, but make sure you get the numbers so you know exactly what you are dealing with.
 
There are ways to deal with nitrates in the tap water, but I have not had this issue thankfully so I will leave it for those with experience to comment.  But I would look into this; given the scientific literature, and the opinions of some very knowledgeable sources, I would not just write the issue off as irrelevant.  To me, that is like advising someone they can smoke cigarettes with no risk because they know someone who has smoked all their life.  That is proof of nothing.  I will return to this topic when I have had the opportunity of discussing it with Dr. Monks.
 
Byron.

 

[glolite]

Yes I agree. Now have aching arms and have used half a bottle each of the nitrate kits and the result is the same.....cherry red! Think I'll give up and just carry on with the water changes, the mbuna cichlids were fed tonight and they just tried to eat the syringe that I used to take my sample of tank water with so they are very active and hopefully healthy.

 

[glolite]

Hi Byron, thanks for that, I will contact my local water authority and take some samples for testing as you suggested. None of my mbuna have died from bloat thank goodness but even though I have had them for several years and they breed constantly, I am always trying to improve water quality as much as possible. There are several water filter units on the market which acclaim to lower nitrates, however, they are quite expensive. There are also several products such as purigen and matrix which go in the aquarium filter. Maybe someone else on here has tried them and can give some feedback. Anyway, it's a very interesting topic to be discussing and I look forward to hearing the views of Dr Monks.

 

[Akasha72]

I'm actually tempted to go and buy an API nitrate test just to see if it corrispondes with my JBL one!
 
I'm also wondering if our water is messing up the test. My tank runs at pH 6.5 with a gH of 1 ... I wonder if this is affecting the Nitrate reading. My tap pH is about 7.4 and the Nitrate test comes out at about zero so if the soft water affecting it I have no idea but I can't help wondering 

 

[Byron]

I'm actually tempted to go and buy an API nitrate test just to see if it corrispondes with my JBL one!
 
I'm also wondering if our water is messing up the test. My tank runs at pH 6.5 with a gH of 1 ... I wonder if this is affecting the Nitrate reading. My tap pH is about 7.4 and the Nitrate test comes out at about zero so if the soft water affecting it I have no idea but I can't help wondering 

 
I am not aware of the GH or pH (when not extreme) affecting nitrate tests, but that doesn't mean it isn't.  I use the API and all my tanks test between 0 and 5 ppm.  My largest used to test 5-10 ppm, when it was much more heavily stocked.  And my GH is near-zero, and pH runs from 5 in some tanks to mid 6 in others.  Tap water is zero.

Hi Byron, thanks for that, I will contact my local water authority and take some samples for testing as you suggested. None of my mbuna have died from bloat thank goodness but even though I have had them for several years and they breed constantly, I am always trying to improve water quality as much as possible. There are several water filter units on the market which acclaim to lower nitrates, however, they are quite expensive. There are also several products such as purigen and matrix which go in the aquarium filter. Maybe someone else on here has tried them and can give some feedback. Anyway, it's a very interesting topic to be discussing and I look forward to hearing the views of Dr Monks.

 
Confirm your numbers before worrying more.  Few things are clear-cut, hard and fast in this hobby, and we all have much to keep learning.