The Nitrate Debate

[mark4785]

My nitrate reading, at its highest, has been up to 80 ppm and my fish stock have had no adverse reactions. I'm a member of another online fish/plant community named UKAPS and a lot there seem to think that a nitrate level of 200 ppm is normal and acceptable. I personally think that a nitrate level of 30-40 ppm is ample for plants in an aquarium so there isn't really a need for it to be any higher. Should a person have no plants in the aquarium, I would aim for a nitrate level of no more than 5 ppm to keep algae at bay.

If Nitrates are coming out of your tap at 40PPM what are the best ways to lower it?
 
I always thought around 40 was fine for most tropical species (Discus aside).
 
Are there recommended additives?  Best ways to achieve lower Nitrates without additives if water changes don't work (including RO)?  Can other issues be caused?

 
My discus is kept in water containing 45+ ppm of nitrate and its growing pretty quickly. It is skittish due to being kept alone rather than it responding to any water parameters in my view.
 
I think the more a person puts effort into changing any given parameter, the higher the chance the fish will have its immune system compromised. Fish don't like change, whether you are bringing in a new ornament/plant (visible things) or bringing in/removing chemicals.

 He mentioned that hexamita and hole in the head in cichlids are now associated with high nitrate levels, and he agreed that Malawi Bloat may well be due to nitrates, and keeping nitrates below 20 ppm for all cichlids is advisable.

 
I would not go as far as changing water chemistry based on an association. I could associate increased use of mouth wash with mouth cancer or associate increased technology usage with obesity but until I establish a cause-effect relationship I would not adapt my actions.
 
From my experience, hexamita and HITH syndrome may be caused by stress in general which would include a whole range of things like excess c02 injection, unbalanced diet, interspecies aggression etc

 

[Byron]

My nitrate reading, at its highest, has been up to 80 ppm and my fish stock have had no adverse reactions.
 

 
I would respecfully suggest that you cannot possibly know this.  Much of what affects fish in an aquarium is unseen by us.  As it is known for certain that nitrate itself does cause issues for fish, to assume that it is not causing them because you don't see something is not logical thinking.
 
As someone who is dealing with cancer, I can assure you that I had no evidence that this was developing and present, for many years.
 

I think the more a person puts effort into changing any given parameter, the higher the chance the fish will have its immune system compromised. Fish don't like change, whether you are bringing in a new ornament/plant (visible things) or bringing in/removing chemicals.
 

 
This is a confused statement.  First, I certainly agree that adding chemicals will likely affect fish in some manner, since anything added to the water is getting inside the fish and can affect organs, immune system, respiration, or whatever.  But nitrate is not a parameter, it is a form of toxic nitrogen,  It would make as much sense to say that one shouldn't try to change ammonia or nitrite when they are high, because the fish would prefer it being left alone.
 
As for the association with disease, I gather this has scientific basis and I doubt many if any of us have the scientific background to intelligently argue this.
 
Byron.

 

[Akasha72]

hmm ... well after reading all this and taking it all in I want to speak my mind for a moment.
 
Firstly, I've always been a logical thinker. Give me a puzzle and I'll solve it - even if it takes me days. I don't do scientific stuff (I've said this before on the forum, my mind doesn't work that way) I have an I.Q of over 100 but there are somethings I just can't do!
 
I've also never done stuff just cos someone told me to. I was brought up with "if someone told you to jump off a bridge would you do it" and of course the answer would be - "well no because that would be stupid".
In my personal life I have various Dr's telling me to do this and do that to improve my health condition but I prove the Dr's wrong all the time. They fear me because they don't understand an illness that has no cure.
 
 
So after all this debate on Nitrates I've come up with this:
 
Nitrates matter the same as the other parameters do, but to a much lesser degree. I still question that high levels of Nitrate cause illness - whether that be things we can see (Hexamita, HiTH) or things that we can't (internal damage) This is purely because like many other members I have, at some point, had Nitrates up to 80ppm and possibly even beyond that. I have fish that have been with me for more than 5 years and they are still going strong. They've lived through fish-in cycles and many fish diseases and still they are alive and doing well. And if someone says "how do you know they are doing well?" my reply would be "how do you know that they are not" 
Animals can not speak. They can not tell us if they are happy or sad. If they hurt or they don't. We can not know and will never know - unless Eliza Doolittle really exists!
 
I will always question. I don't care how many letters a person has after their name, I will still question. That is my nature. I strongly believe that no one, no matter how educated, can know everything. It's just not possible, We are human, we learn as we live.
 
Last week I watched a programme about the great barrier reef. One thing I learned was that the scientists there, who once professed to know everything about the great barrier reef, are now having to admit they were wrong. As technology moves forward they are learning new things.
 
Mother Earth will always have surprises up her sleeve for us. We think we know how everything works but we can not know everything. That would be impossible and illogical.
 
And so, my plan is to carry on as before. I will try to maintain a balance with my nitrates but I'm not going to get into a spin if they start to climb. I'll just change some water and carry on. I will continue to question everything, whether that be verbally or whether I just keep it a thought and say nothing.
 
Meanwhile, if anyone want to continue to debate carry on  

 

[OldMan47]

I never knew this was a question. I read my tap water and try to keep my nitrates from doubling that number. It gives me what I need to judge things because a doubling means I am starting to get my chemicals concentrated more than my plants can remove. I worry not at all about nitrates as such but worry more about all of the things it is hard to measure. If the nitrates are becoming concentrated my plants are not removing enough to balance the aquarium water so it is time for a water change.

 

[mark4785]

 

My nitrate reading, at its highest, has been up to 80 ppm and my fish stock have had no adverse reactions.
 

 
I would respecfully suggest that you cannot possibly know this. 
 
 
 

 
I utilize a nitrate meter by Horiba which is a scientific instrument that provides very accurate readings. I think this does give some light onto what is happening in terms of my nitrate levels.

 

[Byron]

 

 
My nitrate reading, at its highest, has been up to 80 ppm and my fish stock have had no adverse reactions.
 

 
I would respecfully suggest that you cannot possibly know this. 
 
 
 

 
I utilize a nitrate meter by Horiba which is a scientific instrument that provides very accurate readings. I think this does give some light onto what is happening in terms of my nitrate levels.
 


 
I was not questioning the test number, but I your conclusion that the fish have had no adverse reactions.  Going by external signs is not always trustworthy, as things can be happening to the fish internally that will not be seen.
 
I would not take the position I have on nitrate if it were not for the fact that every reliable authority is now saying this.  Things change over the years as we learn more, and what was once "acceptable" may no longer be wise practice.  Exposing the fish that have evolved a physiology to function best in a very specific environment (as all freshwater fish have) to factors that work, or may be expected to work, against that functioning, and not expecting consequences, does not make much practical sense to me.

 

[ShinySideUp]

I've also never done stuff just cos someone told me to. I was brought up with "if someone told you to jump off a bridge would you do it" and of course the answer would be - "well no because that would be stupid".

 
I was walking across the Clifton Suspension Bridge in Bristol when a bloke shouted at me "Quick jump off the bridge!!". I did so and just managed to avoid getting hit by an out-of control truck, phew -- then I hit the water at 120 mph. Ah well.
 
None of that is true.

 

[fluttermoth]

My nitrate reading, at its highest, has been up to 80 ppm and my fish stock have had no adverse reactions.

 
I would respecfully suggest that you cannot possibly know this.

 
I utilize a nitrate meter by Horiba which is a scientific instrument that provides very accurate readings. I think this does give some light onto what is happening in terms of my nitrate levels.
 
I was not questioning the test number, but I your conclusion that the fish have had no adverse reactions.  Going by external signs is not always trustworthy, as things can be happening to the fish internally that will not be seen.
 
I would not take the position I have on nitrate if it were not for the fact that every reliable authority is now saying this.  Things change over the years as we learn more, and what was once "acceptable" may no longer be wise practice.  Exposing the fish that have evolved a physiology to function best in a very specific environment (as all freshwater fish have) to factors that work, or may be expected to work, against that functioning, and not expecting consequences, does not make much practical sense to me.

Just to add to Byron's point (only anecdotal, I know, but never mind!); I collect a lot of old fishkeeping books, barely any of which mention water changes of any kind; one that does recommends keeping the old water in dark glass jars for a few weeks, before putting it back in! I can only imagine what their nitrate levels must have been at. One thing I've especially noted in these old books is that the maximum sizes and lifespans for the fish are significantly less than we would expect now (oscars at a max of 6" is one I can remember off the top of my head!) Tetras like neons weren't expected to live more than a year or so (and I have a few false neons that are pushing 7).

So the effects of elevated nitrate (and other substances, as OldMan rightly pointed out) might not have an immediate effect, but they certainly seem to if the fish are exposed to them for any length of time.

 

[ShinySideUp]

It seems from reading through this thread that the underlying problem is no one really knows what the downside of long-term nitrate exposure is. I think we can only assume that the general thing to do is to keep the nitrates down as much as possible but otherwise hope for the best. It's a bit like the Dirty Harry film --  do you feel lucky, well, do ya?

 

[Akasha72]

good 'ol Mr Shiny, I can always rely on you to make me laugh  

 

[vwdank]

I have had hi nitrates in my 55 gallon tank, over the past three weeks I felt like i was getting a 40ppm reading but it's so close to the 80ppm color i was doubting myself and decided to have the LFS test for it.
 
Before I took a water sample to LFS two days prior I added a internal filter and put as much Seachem Matrix it could fit. The following day I get the same reading of 40ppm (i think). 
 
So yesterday i took my sample to LFS also to purchase media filter bags to add the rest of the Seachem Matrix stones to the External filter.
 
LFS said I Had 80ppm so i was highly concerned either he was reading wrong or I was but whatever. I rushed home did a 60% water change added the remaining matrix stones to external filter. I also read that lava stone will help reduce nitrates and i luckily had one in my inventory to add to the tank.
 
After 5 hours of good circulation i tested one more time and the color came up Orange so between 10 - 20ppm (Whew). I'm not sure if it could of dropped 40-50ppm in one water change so i still not sure if it was 40 or 80ppm as the LFS said. 
 
Either way I will be monitor everyday until i think it's at or below 20ppm  without the Matrix stone filtration.

 

[Byron]

I have had hi nitrates in my 55 gallon tank, over the past three weeks I felt like i was getting a 40ppm reading but it's so close to the 80ppm color i was doubting myself and decided to have the LFS test for it.
 
Before I took a water sample to LFS two days prior I added a internal filter and put as much Seachem Matrix it could fit. The following day I get the same reading of 40ppm (i think). 
 
So yesterday i took my sample to LFS also to purchase media filter bags to add the rest of the Seachem Matrix stones to the External filter.
 
LFS said I Had 80ppm so i was highly concerned either he was reading wrong or I was but whatever. I rushed home did a 60% water change added the remaining matrix stones to external filter. I also read that lava stone will help reduce nitrates and i luckily had one in my inventory to add to the tank.
 
After 5 hours of good circulation i tested one more time and the color came up Orange so between 10 - 20ppm (Whew). I'm not sure if it could of dropped 40-50ppm in one water change so i still not sure if it was 40 or 80ppm as the LFS said. 
 
Either way I will be monitor everyday until i think it's at or below 20ppm  without the Matrix stone filtration.

 
From your details, I am assuming the nitrates are occurring within the aquarium, and not coming in with the source water (tap water presumably).  It is relatively easy to maintain low and safe nitrates when the source water is not the problem.
 
We don't have your stats on this tank, meaning the tank volume, fish species and numbers, feeding amounts, whether live plants are present or not, etc.  Provided the stocking is balanced with the water volume and the fish are not being overfed, you should be able to keep the nitrates minimal with good husbandry.
 
Byron.

 

[vwdank]

 

I have had hi nitrates in my 55 gallon tank, over the past three weeks I felt like i was getting a 40ppm reading but it's so close to the 80ppm color i was doubting myself and decided to have the LFS test for it.
 
Before I took a water sample to LFS two days prior I added a internal filter and put as much Seachem Matrix it could fit. The following day I get the same reading of 40ppm (i think). 
 
So yesterday i took my sample to LFS also to purchase media filter bags to add the rest of the Seachem Matrix stones to the External filter.
 
LFS said I Had 80ppm so i was highly concerned either he was reading wrong or I was but whatever. I rushed home did a 60% water change added the remaining matrix stones to external filter. I also read that lava stone will help reduce nitrates and i luckily had one in my inventory to add to the tank.
 
After 5 hours of good circulation i tested one more time and the color came up Orange so between 10 - 20ppm (Whew). I'm not sure if it could of dropped 40-50ppm in one water change so i still not sure if it was 40 or 80ppm as the LFS said. 
 
Either way I will be monitor everyday until i think it's at or below 20ppm  without the Matrix stone filtration.

 
From your details, I am assuming the nitrates are occurring within the aquarium, and not coming in with the source water (tap water presumably).  It is relatively easy to maintain low and safe nitrates when the source water is not the problem.
 
We don't have your stats on this tank, meaning the tank volume, fish species and numbers, feeding amounts, whether live plants are present or not, etc.  Provided the stocking is balanced with the water volume and the fish are not being overfed, you should be able to keep the nitrates minimal with good husbandry.
 
Byron.
 

 
Byron you are correct Tap water Nitrate levels are 0-5ppm at the max. 
 
I believe the high levels were a combination of not enough water changes in the past and the fact i was only using Under gravel filtration with powerbeads only. When I was giving this tank about three years ago I was told thats all i need and what was used previously(old school guy). I'm sure if I did the water changes as I should of been the levels would of never of got that high.
 
A week ago I added a external Filter and the past three water changes  i've been doing in the gravel itself. I know thats not recommended but I do think required from lack of water changes in past. 
 
LFS thinks i should remove the UGF immediately but i'm afraid of disturbing the tank that much so i am hoping with what i have done in the past 3 weeks and with maintaining a weekly water change regiment I should be fine. I am think of adding MTS snails too since my 29gal has plenty to spare.
 
55 gal Tank 48" long -
1 Oscar 6-7"  (yes I know I need a bigger tank and on the hunt for one at reasonable price)
1 Common Pleco 5-6"
1 Rapheal Stripped Catfish 3.5-4"
2 Buenas Aires Tetras 1- 1.5" (may move these guys to 29 gal tank or back to LFS)
 
Equipment -
UGF with two Penguin 550 powerheads
Fluval 50 External Filter
150W Jäger Thermostat heater
Current USA LED Satellite + 48"
 
29 gal Tank - 
2 Electric Blue Rams 0.75"
1 Congo Tetra 1.5"
1 Turquoise Rainbow 1.5"
6 Neon Tetras
3 Silvertip Tetras 1.5"
1 Common Pleco 1.5"
40+ MTS
 
Plants
1 Banana Palnt
1 Hornwort 
1 Moss Ball
2 Java Ferns
 
Equipment -
Aqueon 40 QuitFlow Internal Filter
T-8 20W Power-Glo (will upgrade to Current USA LED Satellite + 24")
 
I wish i could add all this to my Profile page but it seems I can not do anything until i reach 66 "useful" posts. They sure do make it tough to ask questions without piggyback on someone else's thread.

 

[Byron]

I'm seeing why nitrates soared.  The fish are significant waste producers (Oscar and pleco in particular), plus the insufficient water changes (I would change no less than 50-60% every week here) and the UG filter in this scenario is another factor.
 
If you do decide to remove the UG, the tank will have to be torn down and the substrate gravel well washed.  Just shutting it off means some if not most of the bacteria will quickly die off and pollution can be deadly.  This is probably the main problem with UG filters (and like most of us older folks, I once had these exclusively); with canisters at least if it is off for any length of time, such as an extended power outage, you can clean it before reconnecting; not possible with UG.  The Oscar would also appreciate sand, something not possible with UG.
 
You do realize the common plecos will attain somewhere between 12 and 20 inches...need a very large tank.

 

[vwdank]

I'm seeing why nitrates soared.  The fish are significant waste producers (Oscar and pleco in particular), plus the insufficient water changes (I would change no less than 50-60% every week here) and the UG filter in this scenario is another factor.
 
If you do decide to remove the UG, the tank will have to be torn down and the substrate gravel well washed.  Just shutting it off means some if not most of the bacteria will quickly die off and pollution can be deadly.  This is probably the main problem with UG filters (and like most of us older folks, I once had these exclusively); with canisters at least if it is off for any length of time, such as an extended power outage, you can clean it before reconnecting; not possible with UG.  The Oscar would also appreciate sand, something not possible with UG.
 
You do realize the common plecos will attain somewhere between 12 and 20 inches...need a very large tank.

 
Good Morning Bryon,
From another post of mine "I got my API phosphate test kit in today and as suspected my phosphates are very high in my 55 gal 5-10ppm 10ppm at least. This is the same tank with high nitrates although I have gotten nitrates down to 10-20ppm.  Tap water is 0-0.2 for phosphates
 
First question I have is what is the best phosphate remover? I have been reading up on PhosBan but wanted to ask the forum first. Edit: now i am wondering Phosban or Phosgaurd?
 
_I mention before this is the tank that I only had under gravel filtration with 550 powerheads only and lets just say i did not follow tank maintenance like I should have.
_I have added a Fluval external filter about a month ago and have been doing 40% weekly water changes since the 75% water change over a month ago.
 
I am sure I need to remove the under gravel filters and clean the gravel but i am worried about releasing even more toxins in the tank. Any suggestions on the best way to tackle this would be appreciated. 
 
I have been looking at canister filters primarily Cascade 1000 and EHEIM 2215. Casacade is lower in cost seems more user friendly but EHEIM seems to be better quality(only because its been around longer from what i have read) also EHIEM wins the quit battle if by just barely, these are from the numerous reviews i have read. ether way i will be making my purchase tomorrow and will most likely go Cascade as money is tight.  "
 
With that said when i do get which ever Canister filter how should I tackle this process?
Should I run the new filter with the current water as is (after a hefty water change of course) so it gets some bacteria before a complete clean?
Should I run the Phospate reducer for a couple of days first?
 
I do not have a back up tank at the moment so 5 gal buckets for each fish will have to do is that ok and is there anything else I should do 
 
Thanks in advance sorry to bother you specifically but you seem to have a lot of knowledge and I want to do this the right way.