Teething Issues With My New Tank

[JoshuaA]

They will have lost colour and be staying near the bottom for two reasons:

1) They are ill (hence the treatment)
2) They think it is night time.

You're doing all you can, keep your chin up!

This is exactly what I wanted to hear, poor buggers probably think there has been a nuclear fallout or something being so dark for so long. Will be performing another 50% water change in an hour or so as the tests are suggesting its time! Thankfully it has been 2 days before the levels have reached a readable outcome.

Thanks for the advice and responses so far has been very helpful, everyone else as well I'm very grateful! You too Waterdrop!

Anyway. Wow, I applaud your patience. Stick with it, it can only get better.

I'm sure in the end it will be rewarding, I'd also like to think if it were I in the fish tank the Neons would try their best to take care of me!

 

[JoshuaA]

Don't know how much of your other water conditioner you bought or how fast its going down, but I like to recommend Seachem Prime as the conditioner of choice, especially for both the fish-in situation and because its a beginning tank for the first year. Prime is very concentrated so it will last and last, but the important part is what a good job it does neutralizing problems and since you'll be doing a lot of water changes, it will get used a fair amount.

Just ordered a 500ml bottle of Seachem prime as well as some additional equipment for cleaning in case I get algae! Our Aquaplus bottle has only 1/3 left, have been using ~2x the stated amount, it says 10ml for 38l of water to remove chloramines. We're roughly adding around 4 cap fulls (5ml each) for a 50~60% change so its around 2 x as much. I don't know if this is bad for them though I have it in my head that since we're changing the water so often and so fast its probably best for them.

My girlfriend managed to change around 60% of the water in 25 minutes, exact temperature using the thermometer as well as dechlorinating it and allowing the air bubbles to escape and then retreating the fish for white spot again. I think this means I no longer have to go round to help with water changes , Got her doing 2 tests a day for Ammonia and Nitrite and the PH daily. Whenever the Ammonia comes close to 0.25 she performs a water change....

Still no sign of the mystery Nitrite, we're expecting this is the way of the fish haha. I imagine we'll get more frustrated when the Nitrite refuses to disappear.

Once the cycle eventually completes and with some time will introduce another neon or two so they can shoal together as I believe 4 isn't fair on them.

 

[waterdrop]

(no time to reply as in a rush but ask more questions if needed?) WD

 

[JoshuaA]

Interesting turn of events -

White spot isn't visible on the fish anymore though will carry on with the treatment for one more night. Girlfriend got home from work and tested the water to find the Ammonia had spiralled out of control at was exceeding 0.5, though very late last night it was undetectable. Somewhat has taken her by surprise, one of the neons has unfortunately passed away as well. Will be performing a ludicrously large water change and then doing the final treatment for white spot.

It's going to be painful if they all go... I'll have to get the bottle of ammonia ready.

 

[JoshuaA]

So by the time I got to my girlfriends to do the water change, 1 neon had died in the space of 15 minutes ontop of the neon that had died a few hours ago. The ammonia had spiked from an undetectable to just under 0.5 when I did the test in about 18 hours.

Performed a 75% water change and hoping for the best... the best case scenario isn't looking good. After 5 days of medication these neons now appear to have heavily damaged fins! There are no white patches or cotton fluff around the fin edges though they do however look like they've gone through a paper shredded. One neon is gasping frantically and the other seems quite calm.

Water temperature is 27-28, a lot of agitation on the water level and a lot of air bubbles using the venturi valve. Ammonia should be ~0.1. Have given the last day of treatment for white spot (day 5) spots disappeared 2 days ago. Me and my girlfriend are both extremely saddened and demoralised. Everything we've done seems to have just prolonged the inevitable.

Finally.... we're still pulling our hair out over this nitrogen cycle. Is there any chance that this "naturally occurring" bacteria isn't quite occurring in our water supply? The tank has been up for a month almost now granted we replaced the filter 5 days ago, however even then there was no progress on the nitrogen cycle. So has anyone got any pointers? I've tried mature gravel media and filter squeezes and still to no avail there has been absolutely no progress. I've EVEN CONSIDERED using a "Bottled bacteria" though I blatantly know its not going to help.

Any ideas.... what can I do now? We both predict the neons are likely to die in the next few days and well P@Hs has really cheesed me off putting us in this situation, their advice was completely useless and they seemed to have little idea on anything. My girlfriend is coming close to breaking point, I think I passed breaking point some time ago haha... The welfare of the poor neons is still strong in our heart.

 

[waterdrop]

Waterdrop:
the biomax nodes, that come with the fluval U series filters aren't the regular biomax. They're the same stuff but not shaped in a ring. They are about the size of the holes in the rings.
<...>

Ah, interesting to know Chris, thanks for the info! Sounds like they are more single-function, being used as a bacterial surface.

I realize now I've been missing this interesting thread among a bunch I've not gotten to! Hopefully later today I can read though all this interesting material!

I do have two very general comments though Josh: Don't take it too hard about the neons. They might have been the single worst species anyone could have chosen for you to "fish-in cycle" with. We almost always try to have people wait a full 6 months after a tank has started before introducing this fragile species. Its not related to cycling even, there is something else they don't like about new tanks. Secondly, they are also just fragile when it comes to poor cycling conditions, as any cycling tank is going to give. Thirdly, you have an above-7 pH tank (at least your starting tap water I believe) and these are little amazonian acid-lovers. They don't -have- to have acid water but its what makes them feel really comfortable, so that would just be another negative in the picture for them.

The other thought is that (and I need to look back more at this thread to be sure, but) I suspect from a quick look that we still need to work on adjusting your image of the time-frames involved in our autotrophic bacteria and the cycling process to allow for things being slower. One of the things I try to get our beginners familiar with is just how slooow this all is, lol.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[JoshuaA]

Hey Waterdrop

I understand the neons haven't been in the best conditions, of course if we were better informed when we purchased these then we would of taking the alternative and more sensible route of fishless cycling. Theres so much information they either refused to tell us so that we would purchase the tank or they just had no clue anyway.

The timeframe thing I completely understand, the part I don't understand is that I had introduced "bacteria rich" gravel substrate and filter squeezes a while back. The tank has been set up for about a month now (28 days). With 21 of those days having fish in them.

I read over these posts about "Help too much nitrite!" after having the tank for a week or two and I envy them...

If these neons were to pass away me and my girlfriend have already decided to completely empty the tank, put the pebbles in boiling water to kill any bacteria/parasites scrub the glass and give it a good rough washing. Then we will take the artificially route on introducing bacteria.

It was uphill till the white spot hit...

 

[Assaye]

Hey Waterdrop

I understand the neons haven't been in the best conditions, of course if we were better informed when we purchased these then we would of taking the alternative and more sensible route of fishless cycling. Theres so much information they either refused to tell us so that we would purchase the tank or they just had no clue anyway.

The timeframe thing I completely understand, the part I don't understand is that I had introduced "bacteria rich" gravel substrate and filter squeezes a while back. The tank has been set up for about a month now (28 days). With 21 of those days having fish in them.

I read over these posts about "Help too much nitrite!" after having the tank for a week or two and I envy them...

If these neons were to pass away me and my girlfriend have already decided to completely empty the tank, put the pebbles in boiling water to kill any bacteria/parasites scrub the glass and give it a good rough washing. Then we will take the artificially route on introducing bacteria.

It was uphill till the white spot hit...

Hi again =)

Filter squeezings and mature gravel are a tiny boost at best, to be honest. The bacteria is in the media and there is a little, tiny bit on the gravel if the tank does not have an under gravel filter, but squeezing the media into the water and adding mature gravel to the bottom of the tank still requires the bacteria to survive long enough to get into the filter and then to latch on and start reproducing.

You need to think about a couple of months for this process and if it happens sooner, great. Did you keep the old media when you changed filters?

Remember, it doesn't matter how old the tank is, it is the filter that is being cycled and the age of the filter media is the most crucial thing.

Chin up and good luck.

 

[JoshuaA]

Performed another water change around 60-70% as the ammonia had spiked again somehow, I'm not sure what is causing it.

Furthermore Waterdrop has made me feel like I've been let into a trade secret, this Seachem Prime is something else. It might stink but its extremely impressive if what it claims is true. 1.5ml will treat our entire 60l tank! Of course we will push it to 3ml as well.Comparing that to any other water conditioner I have seen in any UK shops it really does feel like the gate to cost effective and efficient fish keeping has opened haha.

I would recommend this to anyone else who is willing to give it a chance.

 

[Assaye]

Performed another water change around 60-70% as the ammonia had spiked again somehow, I'm not sure what is causing it.

Furthermore Waterdrop has made me feel like I've been let into a trade secret, this Seachem Prime is something else. It might stink but its extremely impressive if what it claims is true. 1.5ml will treat our entire 60l tank! Of course we will push it to 3ml as well.Comparing that to any other water conditioner I have seen in any UK shops it really does feel like the gate to cost effective and efficient fish keeping has opened haha.

I would recommend this to anyone else who is willing to give it a chance.

I keep meaning to buy some, lol!

 

[JoshuaA]

Performed another water change around 60-70% as the ammonia had spiked again somehow, I'm not sure what is causing it.

Furthermore Waterdrop has made me feel like I've been let into a trade secret, this Seachem Prime is something else. It might stink but its extremely impressive if what it claims is true. 1.5ml will treat our entire 60l tank! Of course we will push it to 3ml as well.Comparing that to any other water conditioner I have seen in any UK shops it really does feel like the gate to cost effective and efficient fish keeping has opened haha.

I would recommend this to anyone else who is willing to give it a chance.

I keep meaning to buy some, lol!

With the amount of tanks you have (looking at your profile) it would save you a crapton, especially if you're buying the water conditioner at standard retailer price in the UK. I got mine of ebay and for just a little bit more than what I would normally pay... You have something which is like well... To treat a 60l tank at 2x recommended dose is 3ml, on the stuff I normally use it was 36ml.


Also, Can someone clear this one up for me... After doing something further reading I have learnt an interesting fact I wasn't aware of. That some tap water conditioners which neutralise Chlorine and Chloramines actually break the Chloramines down into Ammonia is this true?

 

[Assaye]

Performed another water change around 60-70% as the ammonia had spiked again somehow, I'm not sure what is causing it.

Furthermore Waterdrop has made me feel like I've been let into a trade secret, this Seachem Prime is something else. It might stink but its extremely impressive if what it claims is true. 1.5ml will treat our entire 60l tank! Of course we will push it to 3ml as well.Comparing that to any other water conditioner I have seen in any UK shops it really does feel like the gate to cost effective and efficient fish keeping has opened haha.

I would recommend this to anyone else who is willing to give it a chance.

I keep meaning to buy some, lol!

With the amount of tanks you have (looking at your profile) it would save you a crapton, especially if you're buying the water conditioner at standard retailer price in the UK. I got mine of ebay and for just a little bit more than what I would normally pay... You have something which is like well... To treat a 60l tank at 2x recommended dose is 3ml, on the stuff I normally use it was 36ml.


Also, Can someone clear this one up for me... After doing something further reading I have learnt an interesting fact I wasn't aware of. That some tap water conditioners which neutralise Chlorine and Chloramines actually break the Chloramines down into Ammonia is this true?

That is indeed true. This is why it is very important to get a water conditioner that has an ammonia remover in it. Seachem does this, as does Stress Coat + (which is what I tend to use).

Running out of water conditioner at the moment so I think I'll be popping onto Ebay soon =P

 

[JoshuaA]

That is indeed true. This is why it is very important to get a water conditioner that has an ammonia remover in it. Seachem does this, as does Stress Coat + (which is what I tend to use).

Running out of water conditioner at the moment so I think I'll be popping onto Ebay soon =P

I was given the rough estimate of 4ppm for Chlorine in our water supply, however that doesn't mean Chloramine will be the same. The next question is... Chlorine in pure form is a gas at room temperature and even down to like -30 ish. How do they keep it in our water? Is it just pumped in at pressure along with the water from the water plant? Also, how does naturally ocurring bacteria in the tap water which turns out to be the nitrifying bacteria we want not get killed by this chlorine rich world?

Anyway this is the ebay seller I bought it off Seachem Prime bit steep on the P&P but I think they're all like that. However since I just purchased from them and it was sent the first working day and arrived 2 days later I can vouch that you will get your item .

 

[waterdrop]

Right, the chlorine is streamed in as the water enters the piping system and is under pressure, which keeps the chorine in somewhat better during the stay in the pipes. The dose is only intended to hold down bacteria to healthy levels for humans and only for a short time out of the pipes once it reaches its destination. If the water authority uses pure chlorine then yes, it gases out pretty fast (overnight?, next day?) if left in an open container. Chloramine is a different story, it doesn't gas out and must be treated with conditioner.

There are really two things to consider about our autotrophic bacteria showing up in the water. One is that its pretty well known that some of our types have become resistant to chlorine/chloramine treatment to some extent. The other is that there is just not that much chlorine in there and there will be some, a few, bacteria that just get by. Also, it helps to understand that the nitrifying bacteria are very, very common in soil and water throughout the world.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[JoshuaA]

Even more bad news...

My girlfriend told me to another neon had died... down to 1 now. I asked how it looked etc and what she described sounded very similar to neon tetra disease. What striked me the most was that she said the "the fish was f***ed, its back was all crooked". This is an extremely bad sign isn't it...

So with the expectation this remaining neon will unfortunately pass away, it would be wise to completely empty the tank and start again? Thoroughly clean the tank/filter/heater/gravel/ornaments?