Teething Issues With My New Tank

[JoshuaA]

Well now we not only have the same tank but the same filter so let me know how you get on. I think the biomax is meant to be quite good though something else can shed some more light on there.

I hope you love the silence of it.

Haha yeh, Me and my girlfriend were going to get the bungee cords out to strap everything down in the kitchen, with that flow rate we expected some noise and vibrations!

We just did a full 50% water change before adding the filter in so its got some nice fresh water, effectively putting us back at day 1 but with that stingray it didn't seem like we were making any progress anyway.

 

[Twinklecaz]

No that's how I felt too. and it was an ugly thing. I was actually kinda pleased when it broke lol.

 

[waterdrop]

Biomax is just Fluval's name for the typical ceramic rings that many of use as a "biomedia" that provides lots of surface area for the benefical bacteria to attach and build their biofilms. You can feel the rough surface that they like. The reason they are designed into rings is so that the water will be "randomized" into smaller streams of slowed-down water that will allowed the suspended debris to be dropped into the filter media more easily. That means the ceramic ring is performing a bit of a "mechanical filtration" function in addition to its main "biological filtration" function.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Assaye]

Hi Josh,

The others are being really helpful so I just thought I would add some encouragement.

1) Keep going! You will get there.

2) I have used a Stingray filter and had NO problems with it. Zeolite is confusing and does need to be replaced every few weeks BUT it can really help and in my opinion, does not need to be removed. This is because as long as the sponges are in front of the water flow and so get first dibs on the ammonia and nitrite, the zeolite will simply clear up any excess that the bacteria cannot yet handle. However, it is indeed simpler to take the stuff out and you will hopefully see a more normal cycle. It's a produce that is best used with experience.

3) A cycle can take up to two months - it is very normal to see no nitrites for a number of weeks.

4) You need to be testing your water at least twice a day and removing enough to (in theory) reduce the ammonia to undetectable levels. I tend to do two 80% water changes a day when fish-in cycling a tank. As long as you use good technique to minimise shock to the fish, this will do the fish very little harm - certainly much less than the ammonia is doing to them. This will NOT slow your cycle down - the bacteria can only use what they can use, if that makes sense? Removing the excess won't stall it and someone on here proved it.

5) Neons and guppies are really bad fish for newly set-up tanks, IMO, especially ones going through a fish-in cycle. I believe P@H actually have a policy on not selling guppies to immature tanks but they have no such policy for neons. They believe they are "suitable for beginners". I love neons and have a shoal of them in one of my community tanks, but they have brought me a lot of grief. Neons in particular I would advise that people save for cycled tanks that have been running and healthy for a few months.

6) Great to hear about the U2 - amazing filters. The ceramic chips in the middle are just another surface for the bacteria to live on and one that doesn't get clogged and gunky in the same way as sponges.

7) If you can, move some sponges from the Stingray into the U2. If you want to run them together you'll need to keep it up for weeks - moving the sponges lets you be rid of the filter you don't want and get some (hopefully) seeded media into the new filter. Don't be afraid to use scissors! Don't throw out the old media - even if you only have a handfull of bacteria it is still better than having none. It can take a long time for bacteria to even start to colonise a filter and you don't want to risk throwing any away.

So, keep going and good luck!

 

[JoshuaA]

you don't want to risk throwing any away.

*Sigh*

We discarded the filter... well we put it outside in the sun to dry out because we didn't need it, or at least think we needed it. We didn't see any sign of any process taking place Ammonia only dropped from our water changes and there was never any trace of Nitrite or Nitrate so we hope we haven't ruined our chances.

Unfortunately we happen to have fallen into another pitfall and we have now noticed our Lil'ole Neons have Ich. We rushed out to buy some treatment and we've put the medication in the tank (We also removed the Poly/Carbon part of the U2 filter by advise from the shop). The brand is called "eSHa" Anti White Spot it says it only takes 3 days to do the whole treatment. Though I'm sceptical about that as what I've read indicates that Ich is only prone to being murdered by medication in a small time window of its life time.

So updates...

Ammonia 0-0.25 (Not a clear colour indication but between)
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0

Fish are now being treated for Ich and advised not to perform any water changes during this course.

4 x Neon Tetras left....

Assaye

Unfortunately the person at P@H's had not given us that advice or applied those restrictions on us.

These Neons are going to god damnit make it! For I am SPARTA

 

[JoshuaA]

Here's a question

If I use the Stingray filter sponge and place it into my friends matured tank, inside his filter for say a few nights or maybe a week and then transfer it and cram it inside my Fluval U2 (Where the Poly/Carbon slide goes) Would that transfer a sufficient amount of bacteria to help the tank cycle?

Thanks again

- Josh

 

[Assaye]

you don't want to risk throwing any away.

*Sigh*

We discarded the filter... well we put it outside in the sun to dry out because we didn't need it, or at least think we needed it. We didn't see any sign of any process taking place Ammonia only dropped from our water changes and there was never any trace of Nitrite or Nitrate so we hope we haven't ruined our chances.

Unfortunately we happen to have fallen into another pitfall and we have now noticed our Lil'ole Neons have Ich. We rushed out to buy some treatment and we've put the medication in the tank (We also removed the Poly/Carbon part of the U2 filter by advise from the shop). The brand is called "eSHa" Anti White Spot it says it only takes 3 days to do the whole treatment. Though I'm sceptical about that as what I've read indicates that Ich is only prone to being murdered by medication in a small time window of its life time.

So updates...

Ammonia 0-0.25 (Not a clear colour indication but between)
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0

Fish are now being treated for Ich and advised not to perform any water changes during this course.

4 x Neon Tetras left....

Assaye

Unfortunately the person at P@H's had not given us that advice or applied those restrictions on us.

These Neons are going to god damnit make it! For I am SPARTA

Ok, you've killed the bacteria you had but as you say, there didn't seem to be much going on anyway. At worst it will just prolong the process. Keep up the water changes and all will be good.

Now, the ich. Raise the temperature to about 28C, blackout the tank (towels and blankets are great for this) and add the treatment. Keep up the water testing and water changes, just make sure you replace any meds removed in the water changes. Run a full course of meds but keep up with the warmer water and blackout until the neons have recovered. Could take a week or so. With all the water changes you should be safe to repeat the course of meds after a week if you need to, but the packaging should advise on that.

Popping your spare sponges in a mature filter for several days (or as long as you can) will help seed them but you'll still need to keep up with the water testing and changes. Don't rely on them fully cycling your filter for you.

 

[JoshuaA]

Ok, you've killed the bacteria you had but as you say, there didn't seem to be much going on anyway. At worst it will just prolong the process. Keep up the water changes and all will be good.

Now, the ich. Raise the temperature to about 28C, blackout the tank (towels and blankets are great for this) and add the treatment. Keep up the water testing and water changes, just make sure you replace any meds removed in the water changes. Run a full course of meds but keep up with the warmer water and blackout until the neons have recovered. Could take a week or so. With all the water changes you should be safe to repeat the course of meds after a week if you need to, but the packaging should advise on that.

Popping your spare sponges in a mature filter for several days (or as long as you can) will help seed them but you'll still need to keep up with the water testing and changes. Don't rely on them fully cycling your filter for you.

I don't mind the process the water changes aren't bothering me to be honest... frankly I believe the more I get use to do them now and dare I say ENJOY doing them now. The more enthusiastic I can get my girlfriend into performing the weekly routines herself without help.

It just keeps getting worse and worse for my girlfriend, I'm however extremely pleased with the fact we have caught it as soon as it has actually become visually apparent. (I have actually been specifically looking for it since day 1 as well as fin rot. Due to bad reviews of P@Hs with such) Fortunately I have found a much more local aquatic store stocking a medium variety of freshwater fish and I am not joking when I say its under 500m from her house.

My friend recommended me raising the temperature to 28c as it will help prevent further cycles of the Ich, can we confirm it will not cause the neons any harmful side effects or discomfort for a period of a few days to a week?

The eSHa EXIT medication states for the quantity of water my girlfriend has (60L)...

Day 1 - 12 drops
Day 2 - 6 drops
day 3 - 6 drops

it then states the medication should be complete, we have also removed light coloured ornaments as it can apparently stain them.

Blatantly the medication is not complete however I cannot recall what it says about prolonged treatment but I believe it just goes on to say about extending the 6 drop treatment.

Regarding water changes when medicating, today was day 1 of the medication we are arranging to do another water changing at just before the time we medicated today (6pm). We will be obviously diluting the medication significantly when water changing, is it the case just to carry on with the 6 drops after the water change? I was under the impression the medication degrades over time and you are "topping it up" each day and the top up won't be so effective when you've just removed a large majority of what you're topping up.

 

[JoshuaA]

Ok, so following the advice I was given from the people who have helped so far I have taken the following precautions/steps please tell me if I've missed something or am doing something wrong.

- Altered the temperature on the heater to 28c, I know the heater will take a few hours to stably achieve this from its current temperature (25c) so it will gradually build up to that
- Covered the tank with thin tea towels so not to suffocate or insulate it too much however to prevent the medication being oxidised by the light
- Since the water temperature has been increased I know that the water will be less saturated with oxygen, I have used the Venturi valve set at around 50% open to increase the amount of oxygen in the water
- Left the thermometer still viewable!
- Still doing my water tests (API Master test kit)
- Will perform water changes were necessary

Current water stats

Population - 4 Neon Tetras

Ammonia = 0 - 0.25 (Somewhere between that mark)
Nitrite = 0
Nitrate = 0

Finally....

When it comes to feeding them during this process what should I do? I've cut down feeding to every 2/3 days and I only feed them enough that they can eat in 2/3 minutes. The guy in LFS where I bought the medication said due to the situation I'm in where there is an issue with possible Ammonia spikes he said to feed them and then get the ammonia levels down as low as possible (our 50% water change). He said not to feed them throughout the first 3 days and hope that the ammonia doesn't increase (which hasn't happened so far) he said if you need to continue treatment you can then keep return to normal in feeding and water changes whilst continuing the prolonged course of treatment

Is this sound advice?

 

[Assaye]

Ok, you've killed the bacteria you had but as you say, there didn't seem to be much going on anyway. At worst it will just prolong the process. Keep up the water changes and all will be good.

Now, the ich. Raise the temperature to about 28C, blackout the tank (towels and blankets are great for this) and add the treatment. Keep up the water testing and water changes, just make sure you replace any meds removed in the water changes. Run a full course of meds but keep up with the warmer water and blackout until the neons have recovered. Could take a week or so. With all the water changes you should be safe to repeat the course of meds after a week if you need to, but the packaging should advise on that.

Popping your spare sponges in a mature filter for several days (or as long as you can) will help seed them but you'll still need to keep up with the water testing and changes. Don't rely on them fully cycling your filter for you.

I don't mind the process the water changes aren't bothering me to be honest... frankly I believe the more I get use to do them now and dare I say ENJOY doing them now. The more enthusiastic I can get my girlfriend into performing the weekly routines herself without help.

It just keeps getting worse and worse for my girlfriend, I'm however extremely pleased with the fact we have caught it as soon as it has actually become visually apparent. (I have actually been specifically looking for it since day 1 as well as fin rot. Due to bad reviews of P@Hs with such) Fortunately I have found a much more local aquatic store stocking a medium variety of freshwater fish and I am not joking when I say its under 500m from her house.

My friend recommended me raising the temperature to 28c as it will help prevent further cycles of the Ich, can we confirm it will not cause the neons any harmful side effects or discomfort for a period of a few days to a week?

The eSHa EXIT medication states for the quantity of water my girlfriend has (60L)...

Day 1 - 12 drops
Day 2 - 6 drops
day 3 - 6 drops

it then states the medication should be complete, we have also removed light coloured ornaments as it can apparently stain them.

Blatantly the medication is not complete however I cannot recall what it says about prolonged treatment but I believe it just goes on to say about extending the 6 drop treatment.

Regarding water changes when medicating, today was day 1 of the medication we are arranging to do another water changing at just before the time we medicated today (6pm). We will be obviously diluting the medication significantly when water changing, is it the case just to carry on with the 6 drops after the water change? I was under the impression the medication degrades over time and you are "topping it up" each day and the top up won't be so effective when you've just removed a large majority of what you're topping up.

The neons will be fine at 28C for a while. They don't want to be kept that high in the long term but they can most definitely cope in the short term.

Regarding the meds - If you add 12 drops to 60 litres (which is 1 drop per 5 litres) then when you do a water change, add the right number of drops back in. So a water change on day two would mean you need to add 1 drop for every 5 litres you remove plus the 6 drops for that day. It is safer to slightly under mediicate than over medicate.

Ok, so following the advice I was given from the people who have helped so far I have taken the following precautions/steps please tell me if I've missed something or am doing something wrong.

- Altered the temperature on the heater to 28c, I know the heater will take a few hours to stably achieve this from its current temperature (25c) so it will gradually build up to that
- Covered the tank with thin tea towels so not to suffocate or insulate it too much however to prevent the medication being oxidised by the light
- Since the water temperature has been increased I know that the water will be less saturated with oxygen, I have used the Venturi valve set at around 50% open to increase the amount of oxygen in the water
- Left the thermometer still viewable!
- Still doing my water tests (API Master test kit)
- Will perform water changes were necessary

Current water stats

Population - 4 Neon Tetras

Ammonia = 0 - 0.25 (Somewhere between that mark)
Nitrite = 0
Nitrate = 0

Finally....

When it comes to feeding them during this process what should I do? I've cut down feeding to every 2/3 days and I only feed them enough that they can eat in 2/3 minutes. The guy in LFS where I bought the medication said due to the situation I'm in where there is an issue with possible Ammonia spikes he said to feed them and then get the ammonia levels down as low as possible (our 50% water change). He said not to feed them throughout the first 3 days and hope that the ammonia doesn't increase (which hasn't happened so far) he said if you need to continue treatment you can then keep return to normal in feeding and water changes whilst continuing the prolonged course of treatment

Is this sound advice?

Your plan sounds good. The safest option is to increase the temperature by 0.5-1C a day so if the fish don't seem to be struggling too much I think you can take the time to slowly raise the temperature rather than putting it right up. However, if you have already put the temperature up don't worry tooo much.

Feeding - fish can eat a LOT of food in 2-3 minutes. I would say give them enough every couple of days that they get 2-3 good mouthfulls each but don't let them have a feeding frenzy. If you see their bellies swelling then they've had too much.

As always, just keep up with those water tests!

Good luck - keep us updated on how it's going.

 

[JoshuaA]

Hey just a quick one!

Still no sign of the elusive nitrite, however this is not my worry.

We've been medicating them for 3 days now, had them covered up all the time and have had the heater at 28c. My girlfriend is a little worried as when she was performing a ammonia/nitrite test she said they appeared to look in her words "so bad". She said there was no colour in them. Personally I believe this is done to the fact the water is malachite green and that they've seen minimal light for 3 days now as well being slowly simmered alive at 28 haha.

Is this expected, they have barely moved up from the bottom of the tank, although they are swimming around the bottom they haven't apparently moved up to the top for a while. I have been pumping more air into the water using the venturi valve. The medication says its over after 3 days, however as we all know the Ich are invulnerable in certain stages. At what point should we stop treating them a few days after the white spot disappears?

 

[abih2005]

Pets at Home should be shot, or at least restricted to legal restrictions on sale of fish like Neons!! I took my small ailing shoal back to the store and refused to take them home, they gave me a guarantee of a replacement once my fishless cycle has sorted itself out. They're morons, it's quite disturbing how little they seem to value the fish that they sell.

 

[JoshuaA]

Pets at Home should be shot, or at least restricted to legal restrictions on sale of fish like Neons!! I took my small ailing shoal back to the store and refused to take them home, they gave me a guarantee of a replacement once my fishless cycle has sorted itself out. They're morons, it's quite disturbing how little they seem to value the fish that they sell.

The problem is worse than just the fish, whilst working in the pet store I was in, I got so many complaints over what happened to their hamsters/gerbils/rabbits and guinea pigs.

Gerbils were suffering from a known issue with severe inbreeding in which they rock back and forth frequently, they also have a less than sufficient life span due to their poor bloodline.

Rabbit advice was generally poor and they were not very well cared for in the store, usually left without food and told customers "We have a feeding time for the rabbits". A pet worker should know that a rabbit has a very specific dietary requirement due to the way their intestines work and therefore they realistically need to consume food throughout the day not at specific times like humans or dogs. This will cause many problems.

Guinea Pigs were also inbred and also quite often than not suffered vitamin C deficiencies as well as having problematic teeth.

Finally the hamsters.... oh lord... they were really badly inbred they were awful on averagely they died within 6 months opposed to the standard 2 year life span. I received multiple complaints about all of these but the hamsters was pretty bad.

Nearly all of their livestock is overstocked the fish is actually kind of shocking in some circumstances... I wouldnt think it was so bad if it was by accident but you notice that when they sell a bunch of fish they stock the tank right back to where it was rather than letting it down to a normal stocking level. Granted they are a store and they need to make money but not at the expense of the fishes lives. The Degus were always over stocked and they frequently had worms, with this sort of worms you really need to keep them as isolated and as far as possible from other animals but no they were pretty much right next to the rest. In the store I worked in if there was any case or sign the whole section of rabbits/guinea pigs would be isolated a few hundred metres from the store in a specially designed hut and cared for there using protective clothing and strict cleaning regimes.

Thread is derailing like a freight train with that, however I totally agree. I suggested bringing my neons back but the guy insisted there was no reason to do so and that they would be hardy. However I believe now is DEFINITELY NOT an option now, as I'm currently treating them for Ich which no doubt has come from the P@H store as I had no other stocked fish, returning them would no doubt result in a return of Ich and causing the fish even more stress.

Too many people from the store have different opinions.

Edit: On a final note I have found another aquatic shop within a few hundred metres of my girlfriends house and even though it is only small it appears all the fish are in good and well cared for. They have about 20/30 tanks in a rather small room, however EVERY single tank has its own filter and its own heater. Thus caring for the individuals requirements of the fish and helping prevent infections spreading.

 

[chrisbassist]

Waterdrop:
the biomax nodes, that come with the fluval U series filters aren't the regular biomax. They're the same stuff but not shaped in a ring. They are about the size of the holes in the rings.


Anyway. Wow, I applaud your patience. Stick with it, it can only get better.

 

[Assaye]

Hey just a quick one!

Still no sign of the elusive nitrite, however this is not my worry.

We've been medicating them for 3 days now, had them covered up all the time and have had the heater at 28c. My girlfriend is a little worried as when she was performing a ammonia/nitrite test she said they appeared to look in her words "so bad". She said there was no colour in them. Personally I believe this is done to the fact the water is malachite green and that they've seen minimal light for 3 days now as well being slowly simmered alive at 28 haha.

Is this expected, they have barely moved up from the bottom of the tank, although they are swimming around the bottom they haven't apparently moved up to the top for a while. I have been pumping more air into the water using the venturi valve. The medication says its over after 3 days, however as we all know the Ich are invulnerable in certain stages. At what point should we stop treating them a few days after the white spot disappears?

They will have lost colour and be staying near the bottom for two reasons:

1) They are ill (hence the treatment)
2) They think it is night time.

You're doing all you can, keep your chin up!