Teething Issues With My New Tank

[PDSimon]

pH drops are common in fishless cycling. I think it has something to do with the excess nitrites or nitrates - one of more experienced members will know more on that.

On my cycle and many others, we put bicarbonate soda in. It raises the pH very quickly and normally to about 7.8.

i'd see what oldman47 thinks before you start adding bicarb though. Just bare it in mind if you want to research it a bit more.

 

[JoshuaA]

pH drops are common in fishless cycling. I think it has something to do with the excess nitrites or nitrates - one of more experienced members will know more on that.

On my cycle and many others, we put bicarbonate soda in. It raises the pH very quickly and normally to about 7.8.

i'd see what oldman47 thinks before you start adding bicarb though. Just bare it in mind if you want to research it a bit more.

Well we needed to redose the tank with ammonia and we did... then it's gone back up to 8.4 again. Which is where we want it for the bacteria.... correct?

I'm suspected a massive water change is in order here? I mean we've completed our 16th day and we've gone through 5 doses of ammonia from the start. This would mean a hell'uva lot of Nitrite and if this is causing our pH to crash wouldn't it be wise to do a massive water change. Redose with ammonia and our pH will be more stable as the water will be no longer over saturated with Nitrite.

My girlfriend was adamant the Nitrite test was reading 2ppm before though, however I have my doubts!

Rather than playing chemists would it be more ideal just to do a large water change to remove excess nitrites and just keep feeding the A-bacs with Ammonia solution and the N-bacs when they decided to come along and set up camp will still have a large food source to consume?

 

[PDSimon]

yeah if its API often it has colour tones of 2ppm... (well it does for me) even though its actually going off the chart.

I'm not sure, i wasn't advised to do a waterchange when my nitrites were ~90ppm (although I thought they were about 25ppm)

I decided to do one the other day and realised they were really high and now i'm glad i've done it because its been a few days and it seems although its cycling the nitrites well. Bare in mind i'm on day 41, your on day 16!

If your happy to do a big waterchange, I personally don't see any harm. I would try and match the water though roughly. When I did mine I just boiled a load of water and kept the tank above 20degrees with a 95% water change.

But it won't be a bad thing to wait longer. 8.4 is perfect btw. Ammonia never made the pH go up for me and putting some bicarbonate soda is simple, I just put a table spoon and a bit in my 100L tank and it went up to 7.8-8 from 6.8 last time.

edit: I noticed your nitrates have gone up a lot, which is a sign the nitrites are being processed. my nitrates took ages to appear and only have since the water change. you might find that all those nitrites are processing quicker than you think. theres just a lot of them like you say.

What are you dosing ppm wise?

 

[JoshuaA]

edit: I noticed your nitrates have gone up a lot, which is a sign the nitrites are being processed. my nitrates took ages to appear and only have since the water change. you might find that all those nitrites are processing quicker than you think. theres just a lot of them like you say.

What are you dosing ppm wise?

I hear high nitrites causes the nitrate test to be very inaccurate! I mean they showed up the instant that the nitrites showed up in their numbers so! I mean it was at 5ppm of Nitrate when the nitrite was only at like 0.5 so I don't know if it can effect it that much but I imagine it can.

I dose about 4/5ppm its hard with only adding 3.16ml its either 4 or 5. I do a test about an hour later to make sure it isnt over dosed and it usually comes out bang on 4ppm. However I'm just a little worried that since its processing the ammonia in like 12 hours we might be a little buggered when it comes to processing the nitrite! If Nitrite is acidic and ammonia is a base then the only way for me to keep my pH currently is to keep dosing the ammonia.

How long will the A-bacs go without a source of ammonia? I mean its getting ridiculous that it does it in 12 hours with ease so early on. Initially I would of been overjoyed but I just can't stop thinking having to dose my tank every 12 hours would be a bit dodgey. Its been kept at 24 hours each dose as I don't know whether to waterchange or not.

 

[OldMan47]

You are correct. High nitrites can show up on the nitrate test as if they were nitrates.
If you are seeing a pH drop, try a very large water change. Some of the nitrites are nitrous acid and some of the nitrates are nitric acid. When you first added the 9.5% solution of ammonia, it was really in the form of ammonium hydroxide in a water solution. That means it was a weak base. Now you have water that includes some acids and the pH is not surprisingly dropping. By doing a large water change you remove those acids and also replenish the bit of buffer that is in your tap water. You can reasonably expect it to make your water's pH bounce right back up.

 

[PDSimon]

You're not buggered at all.

The thing is, this is still quite early stages and 12 hour testing isn't for a while yet. 12 hour dosing is a misunderstanding. You only test on a set time everyday. So if i was testing every 12 hours, even if 12 hours after dosing my ammonia was 0, i wouldn't add another 5ppm until the 24 hour set time.

This process isn't smooth... my ammonia started going down in about 10 days, but 31 days later I have now only seen a notible drop in nitrite (other than a huge waterchange) and only just started to get more nitrates! Unlike you which is showing nitrates(whether they are or not).

I'd do that waterchange and start adding 3ppm daily so that you reduce the overall nitrogen throughout the nitrite spike - assuming that your ammonia has cycled within 24 hours fully now.

 

[JoshuaA]

The Ammonia is easily processed in the 24 hours, however the pH is only in the "optimal bacterial soup" when the ammonia is added. Currently on our most recent test about 90 minutes ago the pH was 7.4 and there was still 2ppm of Ammonia.

I don't want to keep letting the pH get too low between each ammonia does otherwise the bacteria will probably go dormant and no progress will be made, so a water change it is then? I massive one? I mean it will only take a dose of ammonia to get the nitrite back up again and it isnt as if we're removing all. Though making a guesstimate here we're going to be looking at 70ppm of nitrite in the water.

If the Nitrite is an acid and the ammonia is a base as well as taking the relatively soft water into account. The only way to stop my pH crashing hard and burning fast is to do a water change or add something to alter my pH which won't really be an option with the soft water? I mean after all the N-Bacs don't need THAT much Nitrite? So what percentage water change should I be looking at tonight before we redose the ammonia... somethning like 90%?

You are correct. High nitrites can show up on the nitrate test as if they were nitrates.
If you are seeing a pH drop, try a very large water change. Some of the nitrites are nitrous acid and some of the nitrates are nitric acid. When you first added the 9.5% solution of ammonia, it was really in the form of ammonium hydroxide in a water solution. That means it was a weak base. Now you have water that includes some acids and the pH is not surprisingly dropping. By doing a large water change you remove those acids and also replenish the bit of buffer that is in your tap water. You can reasonably expect it to make your water's pH bounce right back up.

Sorry! I didn't see your post because I just jumped to page 5 straight away. Ah well you've confirmed what I was thinking and the science involved is coming back to my mind. I'll do a massive water change then, I've been planning a new technique due to our absence of them to be able to siphon water back into the tank from a bucket, rather than having to do our bag changing technique. We make sure the water is pretty much exact temperature when we do it so this won't be problematic.

Few questions

How long can the bacteria survive in the filter without it turned on?

How long can the bacteria survive without a source of Ammonia?

Am I aiming for the 4/5ppm dose of Ammonia to be presented to me as Nitrate with in 12 hours?

Should I only dose the Ammonia every 24 hours?

 

[PDSimon]

Stick the filter in a bucket of tank water, do a 90% change and remember to condition the water.

I have soft water (6GH and 3KH) and my pH has dropped a few times now. I just added bicarb, it raises the hardness as well as the pH. Then before you add fish when the cycle is over you do a big waterchange.

So if the waterchange doesn't do much (which it doesn't always), bicarbonate of soda is an easy addition to use

I have always read that its best to dose every 24 hours. Waterdrop also advised me to dose 3ppm throughout the nitrite spike stage. quote from waterdrop about dosing which you may find useful:

Yes, dosing the ammonia at a consistent time of the 24 hour day accomplishes two things:

"1) It helps restrict how much overall nitrogen you are inputting to the system. (If you add ammonia any time you see that its zero, you could end up putting a lot more ammonia in and creating a lot more excess nitrite and eventually nitrate. So the behavior of being quick with the dosing bottle can end up actually slowing down your cycle.)

2) By sticking with a pretty consistent time, you help to make the eventual results you are reading behave in a more consistent way. The "dose" of ammonia can be thought of as the initial "pulse" that starts a sine wave of ammonia and then a sine wave of nitrite going across the following 24 hours, kind of like waves in the ocean. If your pulse is more consistent, your waves are somewhat more consistent later when you come back to test at 12 and 24 hours. This sometimes helps your multi-day trend to jump around a little less."

- How long can the bacteria survive in the filter without it turned on?

- How long can the bacteria survive without a source of Ammonia?

hopefully oldman47 or someone els could answer those cos i'm not certain on either (probably about a day without ammonia)

Its normal to have a small stall after a big waterchange too

 

[Assaye]

Posted

 

[JoshuaA]

Posted

Ah sweet! You wanna PM me the price of postage and give us your email and I'll paypal it right to you? Did you remember to put our friendly bacs with food?

Yes, dosing the ammonia at a consistent time of the 24 hour day accomplishes two things:

"1) It helps restrict how much overall nitrogen you are inputting to the system. (If you add ammonia any time you see that its zero, you could end up putting a lot more ammonia in and creating a lot more excess nitrite and eventually nitrate. So the behavior of being quick with the dosing bottle can end up actually slowing down your cycle.)

2) By sticking with a pretty consistent time, you help to make the eventual results you are reading behave in a more consistent way. The "dose" of ammonia can be thought of as the initial "pulse" that starts a sine wave of ammonia and then a sine wave of nitrite going across the following 24 hours, kind of like waves in the ocean. If your pulse is more consistent, your waves are somewhat more consistent later when you come back to test at 12 and 24 hours. This sometimes helps your multi-day trend to jump around a little less."

Ah thats good then, we've noticed it gets processed in 12 hours but we haven't dosed anything under 24 hours yet so , hopefully this mature media should help us out!

 

[JoshuaA]

Monies have been sent and dee liver d

Just trying to voice my credibility across the forums haha.

 

[JoshuaA]

Anyone know at which pH level becomes toxic to our friendly bactiera? My girlfriend messaged me to say the pH dropped to 6.4 and sure enough the bacteria has ceased processing as the Ammonia hasn't changed all day. I'm wondering if the tank is now balanced and settled at 6.4 which isn't good. She was being a typical girlfriend and decided she "wasn't in the mood" to do a water change and therefore the pH has knowingly let it crash to 6.4 even though I told her ...

 

[OldMan47]

A low pH will not kill off your bacteria but it will stall the cycling process at about a 6.4 pH. At that pH, I would do a massive, 90% or more, water change and then dose ammonia to bring my system back into improving the filter bacteria levels.

 

[JoshuaA]

A low pH will not kill off your bacteria but it will stall the cycling process at about a 6.4 pH. At that pH, I would do a massive, 90% or more, water change and then dose ammonia to bring my system back into improving the filter bacteria levels.

Alrighty, I was intending to march round to her house and drain the tank down to the gravel level.

 

[OldMan47]

That is exactly the size water change that I was contemplating Joshua. Don't forget the dechlorinator and definitely use enough ammonia to bring the concentrations back up.