Started my Fishless cycle

[Dermot40]

The main man from Tropco phoned me today as I had messaged them about my KH ph issue with using Goop. We spoke for over half an hour and he explained to me what I had to do before I add the Goop coming tomorrow. If all goes well I could be adding fish after or during weekend. With the soft water issue i have I can keep on top of it when readings drop with either bicarb, crushed coral or Aragonite.
I have to do a big water change to reduce Ammonia to approximately 2ppm then add bicarb if it affects my KH & PH.

 

[Essjay]

I would not add fish until you are 100% sure the goop can remove 3 ppm ammonia to zero ammonia and zero nitrite in 24 hours. The Tropco man would say that as he wants to sell his product but I do not know of any bacteria products which get a tank ready for fish so quickly.
Adding ammonia to test and finding the tank is not cycled yet just means waiting a bit longer. Adding fish and finding the tank is not cycled means doing a fish in cycle with lots of water changes, possibly daily, to stop the fish being harmed.


I would ignore what he says. Add the goop and continue with a fishless cycle. Follow the method on here as TwoTankAmin wrote it to avoid nitrite getting high enough to stall the cycle. Use bicarb to keep the KH above 4 and the pH above 7.0. When the cycle is complete, do a big water change to remove all the nitrate made by cycling and all the bicarb. Keep soft water fish and it does not matter if the pH drops low.

Cycling Your New Fresh Water Tank: Read This First!

Cycling Your First Fresh Water Tank What is Cycling and Why is it Important? Fish waste, and especially fish breathing, plus uneaten food and other organic matter breaking down in a tank all produce Ammonia. This can quickly become toxic to fish if it is allowed to build up to any measurable...

www.fishforums.net

If the goop works, you may not see nitrite as the nitrite eaters would eat the nitrite as soon as the ammonia eaters make it. However, TwoTankAmin is our cycling expert and he has made this comment about Tropco's product

This product, which they tell you on their site is, "A pouch of live Nitromonas and Nitrobacter" contains the wrong bacteria.

Nitrosomonas, the ammonia oxidizer, comes in a variety of strains but they do not identify the strain. So it may or may not be a correct one. But, Nitrobacter is not what is found in established tanks. It is a wastewater bacteria which is able to handle nitrite levels way higher than what is seen in put tanks. The proper bacteria is Nitrospira.

The problem is that the Nitrospira are patented and cannot be used by almost amnybody whoc doesn't hodl the patent rights. These are held by Dr. Timothy Hovanec (who discovered them) and Marineland where th warked running their labs at the time. marineland was bought by a conglomerate with a pet division that includes Tetra. They turned the patent over to the Tetra division and they sell a similar product to the Dr. Tim's. Any other product will not provide the bacteria which are the ones that are in out tanks once it has been cycled/established.

Next, when one used a proper bacteria startr it contains both ammonia and nitrite oxidizers. So whatever amount of ammonia they can turn into nitrite, there sufficient bacteria to immediately turn that nitrite to nitrate. So it is not uncommon to see little or no nitrite when cycling this way. The "idea" concentration of ammonia to be adding for a fishless cycle is basically between 2 and 3 ppm.

Finally, if live plants are involved, they use ammonia but produce 0 nitrite or nitrate.

In other words the goop contains the wrong species of nitrite eaters. It contains the species which grow in waste water with very high nitrite which won't grow at the low levels in aquariums.

 

[AlexT]

You will know you can add fish when your ammonia and nitrite readings are both zero 24 hours after your ammonia has tested for either 1ppm or 2ppm 3ppm @Essjay might be able to confirm on that

Edit: She has spoken and it is 3ppm of Ammonia to zero Ammonia and zero nitrite 24hrs later.

 

[AlexT]

Yes add the ingredients and carry on like a normal fishless cycle. If it happens to work wonders and you can get 3ppm Ammonia to zero Ammonia and zero Nitrite 24 HOURS AFTER THE 3PPM AMMONIA READING then we may have a winner winner chicken dinner.

 

[Essjay]

I'm just quoting TwoTankAmin's fishless cycling method . Dr Tim's method does say 2 ppm, but that's using a different scale from our test kits. His 2 ppm is around 2.5 ppm as we can measure it.

 

[AlexT]

I'm just quoting TwoTankAmin's fishless cycling method . Dr Tim's method does say 2 ppm, but that's using a different scale from our test kits. His 2 ppm is around 2.5 ppm as we can measure it.

We trust you as @TwoTankAmin PR worker.

 

[Dermot40]

No he said I was to wait till was Satisfied that I had added ammonia to 2ppm ammonia before I could safely say tank was cycled, but I could add fish instead of ammonia but test often.
Not many companies take the time to phone individual customers that their conditions are not the normal

 

[Essjay]

No he said.............but I could add fish instead of ammonia but test often.

Not the best advice, I'm afraid. Fish-in cycles can kill fish or cause them lasting harm. Not to mention all the water changes that need to be done, often daily.

The only safe way is to add enough ammonia to get 3 ppm in the tank water and test. If there is zero ammonia and zero nitrite 24 hours later, it is cycled. But if one or both are not zero, it is not cycled. And if it's not cycled, wait until it is before adding fish.

 

[Dermot40]

Sorry it must be the way I wrote the message. He told me to wait till I have 0 readings of Ammonia & Nitrite. Add ammonia to 2-3ppm wait 24 hrs test if BOTH were 0 I could repeat. After a further 24 hrs if again BOTH readings were 0 do a water change. Then test. Check Nitrate, If all good get 2 small fish. I don’t think I wrote the last message as I was as usual doing 2 things at once.
No mistake these guys are very professional they have an amazing set up. He took the time to phone me as I had concerns when I ordered the Goop, and spent half an hour with me on phone.

 

[Dermot40]

What is the best to use long term with my soft water issues. Crushed coral, Aragonite or Bicarb.

 

[Essjay]

That makes more sense

The method on here says to add 3 ppm ammonia and wait till certain ammonia and nitrite levels have been reached. Then add another 3 ppm ammonia and wait to reach more targets. Then add 1 ppm ammonia and wait until yet another pair of targets have been reached. Then finally add 3 ppm ammonia and if both are zero 24 hours later, the cycle has finished. Adding ammonia too often results in so much nitrite that the cycle stalls, which is why ammonia is only added when specific readings for ammonia and nitrite have been reached. Older methods say to add ammonia every time it drops to zero which did cause problems with stalled cycles, and this is why TwoTankAmin did a lot of research to write his method.
And a big water change is needed at the end to remove all the nitrate that cycling makes. And in your case, to remove all the bicarb as well.

What is the best to use long term with my soft water issues. Crushed coral, Aragonite or Bicarb.

None.
Never add bicarb to a tank when there are fish in there.


Once the tank is cycled, you don't need to raise KH - that's only needed to grow the bacteria faster. Once the tank is cycled you don't need to grow any more bacteria, you already have enough. Water changes of 50% a week are all that's needed to replenish KH from tap water. That's not just to replenish KH, it's to remove all the things excreted by the fish we can't measure.

 

[Dermot40]

He said I would need to keep adding Crushed coral or Aragonite item as my cycle would crash without either. When PH KH readings drop.

 

[AlexT]

He said I would need to keep adding Crushed coral or Arago item as my cycle would crash without either. When PH KH readings drop.

Another reason not to add fish. You can stop your tank crashing with sodium bicarb during a fishless cycle

 

[Dermot40]

I thought I could not add bicarb when fish were in tank, but if my water because it is soft will keep dropping I will surely need to add crushed coral because I can’t add bicarb with the fish in tank. Very confused
To keep cycle going I need to add fish. ???

 

[Dermot40]

So what can I add to a stocked fish tank to keep my KH & PH levels up until crushed coral kicks in as levels will eventually go low again. I understand crushed coral does not have an effect instantly
I have ordered crush coral.