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Started my Fishless cycle
- Thread starter Dermot40
- Start date
Post your results for ammonia and nitrite every day, and say which day you add the goop 
TwoTankAmin
Fish Connoisseur
Use crushed coral in a bag in your filter. But understand how it works. For that some basic chemistry helps along with some biology.
In our tank KH is what holds up pH. Moreover, most of the KH consists of carbonates and bicarbonates. These are inorganic forms of carbon as is CO2. The bacteria need oxygen and inorganic carbon. Crushed coral is calcium carbonate. Baking soda is sodium bicarbonate.
Calcium is OK in a tank at proper levels sodium is usually not except in rift lake cicjlid tanks. Crushed coral, marble chips etc. all work this way: when the water is tending towards acid, it causes the coral to dissolve and release the calcium and the carbonates. This prevents the pH from dropping. Water which is naturally higher pH will have a decent KH kevel. However, when one first adds the coral it can take a bit of time to go to work. As it does, it disappears and needs to be replenished. How much coral to add in a bag ib one's filter depends on the volume of water. I started with 1/2 cup in about 35 gal.s of water.
Baking soda works faster but it tends to drive the pH towards an equilibrium of 8.2 and to cause sodium to accumulate.
The bacteria need a few things to work and reproduce: ammonia/nitrite, oxygen, inorganic carbin, a bit of iron and a few other trace elements. Ther are a few things they do not like: light, too much ammonia and/or nitrite being frozen or made much too hot. They reproduce faster when warm but within limits. The do so when there is more ammonia or nitrite than they need. They die off when the reverse conditions exist.
There have been two major discoveries in the last two decades re cycling. But first some quick biology:
Basically, #3 includes all animals and people.
What this meant is there were two different microorganisms converting ammonia to nitrite in water. Some tanks have one, some tanks have the other and some tanks have a mix of both.
However, the more important discovery concerned the Nitrospira. Dr. Hovanec et. al. showed that these were the ones which converted nitrite to nitrate and not the Nitrobacter. As a result Dr. H and Marineland got patents on the nitrospira for use in tanks and the method for detecting and using them. This is why nothing but One and Only and Safe Start can contain Niitrospira.
But the real kicker was the discovery in an aquarium in the basement of a research lab that the Nitrospira were also able to convert ammonia straight to nitrate. Dr. H. had shown that when analyzing all the bacteria prest that the Nitrsomonas (ammonia oxidizers) were only 2% of the total community. That seemed like too few to me. Now I know why, the nitrospira were also carrying some of that load as could be Archaea.
This explains why Goop (and most other bacterial starter products) is not what they appear top be. The nitrobacter in them will dissapear and be replaced by Nitrospira before the tank is fully cycled. A single addition of either Dr. Tim's One and Only or Tetra's Safe Start plus a dose or two of ammonia and, in 10-14 days, you can stock a tank 100% safely. It does not take lots of additions.
As for the two scales for testing- the Nitrogen Scale (notated by the -N) and the Total Ion scale
Assumed atomic weights: H: 1.008, N: 14.007, O: 15.999
I use 1.28 for the conversion factor for Total Ammonia (NH3 + NH4) which is what most hobby test kits measure. Most of the ammonia in water is in the NH4 form. So, Dr. Tim's 2 ppm becomes 2 x 1.28 = 2.56. And, the 5 ppm limits he mentions for the max. for TA and Nitrite, on an API (or similar) test kit, the numbers become 6.4 ppm for TA and 16.4 ppm for nitrite.
Sorry to be so long winded. But once I began to understand the chemistry and biology involved, it all became a lot easier to manage. So I try to pass the info on to others.
In our tank KH is what holds up pH. Moreover, most of the KH consists of carbonates and bicarbonates. These are inorganic forms of carbon as is CO2. The bacteria need oxygen and inorganic carbon. Crushed coral is calcium carbonate. Baking soda is sodium bicarbonate.
Calcium is OK in a tank at proper levels sodium is usually not except in rift lake cicjlid tanks. Crushed coral, marble chips etc. all work this way: when the water is tending towards acid, it causes the coral to dissolve and release the calcium and the carbonates. This prevents the pH from dropping. Water which is naturally higher pH will have a decent KH kevel. However, when one first adds the coral it can take a bit of time to go to work. As it does, it disappears and needs to be replenished. How much coral to add in a bag ib one's filter depends on the volume of water. I started with 1/2 cup in about 35 gal.s of water.
Baking soda works faster but it tends to drive the pH towards an equilibrium of 8.2 and to cause sodium to accumulate.
The bacteria need a few things to work and reproduce: ammonia/nitrite, oxygen, inorganic carbin, a bit of iron and a few other trace elements. Ther are a few things they do not like: light, too much ammonia and/or nitrite being frozen or made much too hot. They reproduce faster when warm but within limits. The do so when there is more ammonia or nitrite than they need. They die off when the reverse conditions exist.
There have been two major discoveries in the last two decades re cycling. But first some quick biology:
Basically, #3 includes all animals and people.
What this meant is there were two different microorganisms converting ammonia to nitrite in water. Some tanks have one, some tanks have the other and some tanks have a mix of both.
However, the more important discovery concerned the Nitrospira. Dr. Hovanec et. al. showed that these were the ones which converted nitrite to nitrate and not the Nitrobacter. As a result Dr. H and Marineland got patents on the nitrospira for use in tanks and the method for detecting and using them. This is why nothing but One and Only and Safe Start can contain Niitrospira.
But the real kicker was the discovery in an aquarium in the basement of a research lab that the Nitrospira were also able to convert ammonia straight to nitrate. Dr. H. had shown that when analyzing all the bacteria prest that the Nitrsomonas (ammonia oxidizers) were only 2% of the total community. That seemed like too few to me. Now I know why, the nitrospira were also carrying some of that load as could be Archaea.
This explains why Goop (and most other bacterial starter products) is not what they appear top be. The nitrobacter in them will dissapear and be replaced by Nitrospira before the tank is fully cycled. A single addition of either Dr. Tim's One and Only or Tetra's Safe Start plus a dose or two of ammonia and, in 10-14 days, you can stock a tank 100% safely. It does not take lots of additions.
As for the two scales for testing- the Nitrogen Scale (notated by the -N) and the Total Ion scale
| NH3 = NH3-N * 1.21589 |
| NH4 = NH4-N * 1.28786 |
| NO2 = NO2-N * 3.28443 |
| NO3 = NO3-N * 4.4266 |
I use 1.28 for the conversion factor for Total Ammonia (NH3 + NH4) which is what most hobby test kits measure. Most of the ammonia in water is in the NH4 form. So, Dr. Tim's 2 ppm becomes 2 x 1.28 = 2.56. And, the 5 ppm limits he mentions for the max. for TA and Nitrite, on an API (or similar) test kit, the numbers become 6.4 ppm for TA and 16.4 ppm for nitrite.
Sorry to be so long winded. But once I began to understand the chemistry and biology involved, it all became a lot easier to manage. So I try to pass the info on to others.
OP
OP
Dermot40
Fish Fanatic
Thank you for your explanation.
As my water is soft and especially when I do a water change ( once tank is cycled ) my KH drops to 2 as that is the reading I get from my tap water test.
My concern is when and if I reach my target of having my tank cycled I will before I add a few fish need to do a water change. So what can I safely add to the tank ( to stop it crashing ) as Tropco man said it would crash at a reading of 2 KH. I must need to add something to my tank safety that will eventually have fish. If I can not add bicarb to a fish in tank.
Do I need an Alkaline buffer like Seacheme Alkiline Buffer.
I have ordered ARAGONITE CORAL SAND but as I know, and as you explained it is not instant. Others however have said once my tank is successful cycled to should not crash with low KH. Is this I wonder just a “ thing “ with cycling a tank with Goop method.
I get my pouch of Goop around teatime I will add this ASAP and report any changes.
As my water is soft and especially when I do a water change ( once tank is cycled ) my KH drops to 2 as that is the reading I get from my tap water test.
My concern is when and if I reach my target of having my tank cycled I will before I add a few fish need to do a water change. So what can I safely add to the tank ( to stop it crashing ) as Tropco man said it would crash at a reading of 2 KH. I must need to add something to my tank safety that will eventually have fish. If I can not add bicarb to a fish in tank.
Do I need an Alkaline buffer like Seacheme Alkiline Buffer.
I have ordered ARAGONITE CORAL SAND but as I know, and as you explained it is not instant. Others however have said once my tank is successful cycled to should not crash with low KH. Is this I wonder just a “ thing “ with cycling a tank with Goop method.
I get my pouch of Goop around teatime I will add this ASAP and report any changes.
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Dermot40
Fish Fanatic
Goop massaged in both filters added at 6pm.
I still don’t know what I can add to the tank when I add fish, as my KH levels Will definitely go below 4.
see leaflet I got with Goop, it clearly states that a below 4 KH will stall the cycle so what can I get to add other than the slow acting crushed coral that will act in time to save my cycle.
Gosh this cycling is complicated HELP.
I can keep Ammonia and KH fine when I don’t have fish but this KH is something else
What do I do after fish added and KH drop back down to 2. Can I add an KH buffer?
I still don’t know what I can add to the tank when I add fish, as my KH levels Will definitely go below 4.
see leaflet I got with Goop, it clearly states that a below 4 KH will stall the cycle so what can I get to add other than the slow acting crushed coral that will act in time to save my cycle.
Gosh this cycling is complicated HELP.
I can keep Ammonia and KH fine when I don’t have fish but this KH is something else
What do I do after fish added and KH drop back down to 2. Can I add an KH buffer?
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Dermot40
Fish Fanatic
Just a thought I have lots of sea shells would adding them to my tank help with my KH problem. I am not keen on adding the crushed coral as I do not have much room in my internal filter ( Fluval U4 ) and I feel scattering it through my sand could give me problems if I ever want to remove it. A canister filter would be the way to go but I don’t have one.
Not sure if this answers your question, but you can run a tank just fine with a KH of 0 and a pH of 6.5, you just have to make sure the fish are those that are suited to the parameters. This talk about the cycle crashing is usually more to do with pH I think, but obviously the people making this seeding media need your KH to be 4 or more for the cycle. No one can say your KH has to 4 long term.
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Dermot40
Fish Fanatic
Yes they have 1100 tanks google them I watched an 1hr long video of them talking about Goop. The guy I spoke to Jack bald guy was the bio chemist that produced Goop.
I have done a Ammonia test 5 hrs after adding the Goop, too impatien, but as I expected no change
I have done a Ammonia test 5 hrs after adding the Goop, too impatien, but as I expected no change
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Dermot40
Fish Fanatic
2ppm it looks a bit lighter from this afternoon but it’s p just my imagination
OP
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Dermot40
Fish Fanatic
Type in Nitrico Goop
I've just seen the bit about making the Goop. Quite a big process they have running there. I've emailed them tonight and asked if I can pick up the Goop on Saturday and see how it performs on a brand new filter sponge in a spare 20 litre tank I have. I'll add 2ppm of ammonia and see if it does something!
OP
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Dermot40
Fish Fanatic
That’s the one I was talking about
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