Spitting out flakes in the morning

[confused_aquarist]

So when I had stable breeding colonies of annulatus, here is what I did. We can compare notes.

That is so funny because only 2 out of 18 I raised from eggs turned out to be males, I keep them at 22 Celsius since egg stage.

The day that I got them from online shopping last July, only 1 female was eating a little bit of daphnia. I stopped feeding daphnia because they started scratching the moment I put daphnia in there which leads me to suspect it was never a gill fluke issue but it still resolved with flubendazole, so oh well, I really could care less now.

Four of the non-eating killied died within just a couple of days, so I got 5 more from another store, quarantined them alone, and 1 male got bullied by alpha male and died during quarantine. After getting bullied I had placed this one into another tank for quarantine and it never recovered, became anorexic and floated and died. When I mixed the remaining 4 with the remaining 1 from initial batch the alpha male died from swollen gill and the initial female got what I thought was hexamita and got anorexic for maybe 3 weeks, floated belly up for another 2 weeks got swim bladder issue and recovered in the following 2 weeks. This female had 3 offspring I never collected any eggs from her afterwards, one of them was the male that died last December from swollen gill. The other surviving male/females produced a lot of offspring, I collected 15 eggs and all hatched and grew fine.

Last November I started to mix offspring with parents and that's when problem restarted. Following 1 month of relative peace the 1 juvenile male I introduced from November batch got bullied by alpha male (it was only a tail nip. It recovers within the same day...), I didn't take it seriously and it started to hide under a log. I quarantined it then it started flashing and got anorexic and floated and died.

I started flubendazole treatment in mid-January to tackle the gill scratching problem that has been going on ever since feeding of daphnia, I did this because I didn't want any more individual to die from gill issue. After 2 weeks into treatment never again flashing behavior from any fish. I'm continuing the treatment for 4 weeks just in case. Maybe their immune system is so weak that they cannot deal with any parasite on their own.

In terms of raising them I just raise them using tap, pH 6.8 maybe 40 ppm GH. I use very clean water feeding fry with paramecium since day 1 switch to brine shrimp and flakes from day 7 never had any of them die. Male start to develop male characteristics on day 40 first with gill cover becoming blue. They are adorable when young.

Last week I notice a female juvenile from the later batch hiding and lethargic, quarantined and treated, got a little better, then got a lot worse. It has had chronic cotton mouth for 2 months and 2 days ago the chronic cotton mouth turned into a chondroma. (As a side note, all of the 4 adult parents have chronic cotton mouth. None except for this 1 juvenile has had it.)

Sorry that this again turned out to be long and a bore, but here's where it becomes a question post again:
In my main tank now, I often see odd behavior during feeding- I feed brine shrimp with a pipette, and most eat right from it, they definitely do not have a reserved personality in regards to feeding. Some individuals though, eat some, then run away and come back to eat more, and run away again and repeat (including alpha male which definitely never gets bullied). I am not sure whether this is just foraging behavior or odd illness behavior. They can eat a lot, it just takes time to feed them because I have to chase them around with pipette.

 

[GaryE]

I think the problem is birds. That's their main predator, and they are hard wired to fear anything passing over the water. Instinct stays. I always keep Epiplatys on my top rack tanks, which are at standing eye level.

I wasn't able to see see E huberi feeding in Gabon. Their streams were fast, and they seemed to dart out of the overhanging bushes to grab food, but stay under cover otherwise. The buses a few cm over the water were loaded with small spiders, and I suspect the falling spiders and flies were their food. Plus there were fire ants falling from bushes that arched right across the water and served as bridges. The locals warmed me so I wouldn't get stung.

I expect it's the same for annulatus. Dart out, grab food, take cover.

 

[confused_aquarist]

I think the problem is birds. That's their main predator, and they are hard wired to fear anything passing over the water. Instinct stays. I always keep Epiplatys on my top rack tanks, which are at standing eye level.

This actually does make a lot of sense, though it's mysterious to me why only certain individuals have this behavior others don't. They'd eat some and when they run away they always run towards the darker spots in the tank. I guess it would make sense since food only falls where there is no cover.

Comparing with your notes I can be absolutely sure that I don't have a right setup for them and it could be contributing to stress (not much plants or top hiding space etc.), but it's a trade-off because of the disease issues and well-planted tanks are just so difficult to clean. I would love to have an actual naturally-looking tank if I can confirm that the last batch of juveniles that I have are disease-free, but that's hard. I can't tell until they show up sick.

 

[seaweeds]

I use erythromycin. A lot of my fishes were fine when I put them in my main tank after quarantine but when I put my beta in, it has a plumb throat and stomach. It look pretty much like an inflamation. I think the bacteria in the tank is too much for the fishes. Especially with fishes that are overbred or baby fishes with weak immunities.
I also have a corydoras with a white dot on top of it's head. It's not ich so I left him in the tank to see if it would heal. The dot does not disappeared for over a month. I just took it out a week ago and treat it with erythromycin. The white dot turn smaller over the week and it almost disappeared. I am going to put him back in my tank soon.
People forget that their tank is full of bacteria and some fishes might not be able to handle it. If you leave the fishes with wound in the tank, those wound do not heal.
Untreated disease is just as deadly as resistance bacteria. Do not add antibiotic to your main tank because you cant clean your main tank. Use in quarantine tank and then bleach it.

 

[confused_aquarist]

I use erythromycin. A lot of my fishes were fine when I put them in my main tank after quarantine but when I put my beta in, it has a plumb throat and stomach. It look pretty much like an inflamation.

It could be bacteria, but in this case the bacteria attacks the weakest victims that are probably already doomed anyway. What I've seen with these killies is that body gashes and tail nips usually recover within the same day. I've seen some losing half of their tail due to fights and being completely healed within 2 days, and have also seen a 4 week old partially cutting its gill cover from choking on moss and having most of it grown back by 4 months (I thought this was impossible).

I tend to think that most bacterial symptoms, except for TB and sometimes even TB, are secondary. They're usually due to an extremely weakened immune system with macrophage being overloaded by other parasites viruses pathogens and treatments can be helpful but usually don't solve the root problem BUT solving the root problem can help them recover naturally. So in all that's why I'm not particularly positive about fish that require antibiotics to heal.

P.S. As a side note, today I will purchase new spawning mop to breed my juvenile batch! I thought that a new challenge might help to ease my mental state, and hopefully this can lead to a purer colony. It's wonderful that everyone here is always trying to help, rather than criticizing on my insufficiencies w/o paying too much heed to why I am doing certain things certain way. Looking for ideal solution from strings of problems is difficult

 

[GaryE]

I live in a no aquarium antibiotic zone - they are illegal without a veterinary prescription. I haven't found it to be a problem. I quarantine new arrivals. I study the fish before I buy it, and I design the tank for the species I want. I don't expect the fish to adapt to what I want.
I also stock lightly and do 30% water changes weekly, never going beyond 10 days.
I have more than 50 tanks, and do lose fish. Old fish, and newly bought ones. With good set ups and quarantine, I haven't missed antibiotics.

I use erythromycin. (edited for brevity)
I also have a corydoras with a white dot on top of it's head. It's not ich so I left him in the tank to see if it would heal. The dot does not disappeared for over a month. I just took it out a week ago and treat it with erythromycin. The white dot turn smaller over the week and it almost disappeared. I am going to put him back in my tank soon.

Erythromycin is a widely resisted antibiotic which is good against some families of bacteria, mostly gram positive ones. But if I don't know what I'm targeting, why would I use an antibiotic without knowing if it hits the target? As a hobbyist, I am not trained to identify bacteria.
For a Cory with a patch, I would suspect a skin parasite more than a bacterial infection. I would change water more regularly in the tank, and might try an antiparasitic.

@confused_aquarist - I think the difference between us as aquarists is you seem to start out with the assumption there are problems with the fish, and I start by assuming they're healthy.
There is an almost exception. If I get farmed fish, I watch them like a hawk. I expect trouble. My 2 days here annulatus have slight discolouration on the edges of their fins, but I've kept fish for close to 60 years, and recognize that as shipping damage. Clean water'll clear it. If I were a new aquarist, I would probably have run out and bought a fin rot medication - I used to buy a lot of that stuff. Now, I haven't seen real fin rot in 40 years, outside of stores. You learn to recognize things better.
When you want to do the right thing, you can complicate life. If you're neglectful - same result. What I would consider if you think the health of the annulatus adults is compromised may be how I ended up with so many tanks. Collect eggs and start a second line of the fish. Don't combine them with the original group, which may well be carrying diseases from the fishfarm. Watch them to see if the same problems appear. You may be over vigilant, and if so, that experiment helps give perspective for future fish you get.
You don't want floating plants? I don't know how much access you have to nature, but take a walk and collect some dried hardwood branches. Make sure they are very dead. Strip the bark off them, cut them to the lengths you like and float them. There are ways you can keep them on one side of the tank, if you wish. But half a dozen thin (the thickness of a pencil up to the thickness of a cigar) branches will be good cover for the fish.
If you have houseplants and use glass or transparent tank covers, place one with broad leaves so it hangs over the tank. Monstera or Pothos are good for this. It will ease the anxiety of the fish with strong 'fear of birds' instincts.

 

[confused_aquarist]

I live in a no aquarium antibiotic zone - they are illegal without a veterinary prescription. I haven't found it to be a problem. I quarantine new arrivals. I study the fish before I buy it, and I design the tank for the species I want. I don't expect the fish to adapt to what I want.

These are all really good ideas thank you again for sharing them! Right now I have a big filter on top of glass cover that cover half of the tank so in the meantime I will try to think of something neat to cover the tanks. For the 2nd tank I want to experiment by adding more plants, fertilizer, etc. to help plants grown so I can perhaps propagate from a tissue culture source. (I have had floating plants come with snail, worm, planaria, scuds, insect larvae that curls itself in leaves, all at once! Too afraid of carrying pathogen) So you're right I can experiment to give better perspective on what I can do cannot do etc.; I have been rather traumatized by this series of events. The only thing that I'm nervous about would be cross-contaminating each tank. So knowing the identity of the fish farm pathogen may help give an additional layer of sense of security tho that may be asking for too much.

 

[confused_aquarist]

I am so sorry to shift the topic so many times
@GaryE Out of the juveniles that I'm considering to start new tank with- 1 has very pale coloration.
Once in a while, there are some fish that are born pale, stay pale. I've even had a panda variant that stayed panda until transfer into parent tank after which it became a normal pale killie. Whenever they don't display normal coloration of dark black bands, is this disease?
Only few of my females are dark black. Most are dark brown, and a few of them are pale brown. Maybe something's off. They are born this way, not stress.

 

[GaryE]

It's just variation. You should see me. I have perfect camouflage for snow.

 

[BigDog]

I have had this problem before.

With certain fish/ Plecos not eat at all.

Most will while where wanting to eat certain foods.

If they get hungry enough. They will start eating the food we set out for them.

It’s like our cats and dogs. They will only start to eat a certain type of food if they are hungry enough.

 

[confused_aquarist]

It's just variation. You should see me. I have perfect camouflage for snow

Ahhh so there may be a natural reason! That sounds like a smart strategy to blend with nature

I have had this problem before.

These may not have the memory power to develop anorexia out of spite - it may be different for cichlids though
I had a few that glass surfed for a day ate nothing but returned normal overnight. It's mostly from stress.
But usually for mine I find if they do not greet and accept and eat all food that means something's off - especially now that I have 2 separately reared populations where 1 spits 1 doesn't. It may be disease or bad gut environment

 

[seaweeds]

I've doubt a lot of your claims. I've read comment in this forum and none really has been useful. Lets me give you an example people can understand. Say there's a decendant of people who used to live in a country that are hot but immigrated and are currently living in the United States. Now, you ask the children of those descendant to go back and lived in those hot country without a air conditioner. I bet you those children will complain. You probably read an article online about drug resistant bacteria and just spit those words back. The truth is, you do not know just as much as any of us. There are warning because most people are idiots and just like to spread disease. I know about antibiotics and disease resitance bacteria. I am not a commercial fish seller and do not contaminate my fishes. People who are commercial seller would need a large quantity of antibiotic who will then dump those medicine into river or lakes which will cause problems. Anything that happens to my fishes will stay in my fish tank. I do not touch medicated water. If all my fishes dies from disease resistant bacteria, I will bleach the **** out of my fish tank. Fishes that are tank raised are not resistant to disease as wild caught especially when they are overbred and inbred over and over. You put wild caught fishes in your tank, it will wipe out all of your fishes without medication. You kind of need antibiotics at this stage of the game especially getting fishes from places you dont know. Just use it with caution, not out of fear. There's a reason every children gets vaccinated after they are born.

You remind me of people who claims that natural methods are the way to go. They claimed that fishes lived natural in lakes or ponds with only plants and doesnt need a filter or water changes. There's are a lot of things wrong with those claims. One, those are large ecosystem, not a small box that you simply add plants. Two, no one feeds the fishes in those ponds. If those claims are true, then fishes in the tank should not be fed either. Those people chose an example where the ponds are thriving and ignoring examples in ponds wheres nothing survives.

I lived in the United States. EM is not banned here. If people are afraid of antibiotics, no one would use it to cure disease.

I learned things quick and observed my fishes for odd behavior. I have a hang on back water filter and plants in my tank. I changed water when it became clogs which is like once every 3 weeks. I topped off the water when water evaporated. I have two reticulated corydoras that's hidding in the clay pot. Only one has a white dot. The other doesn't. I checked the dot and concluded it's not ich. It does not spread. It stay the same size for over a month. I have treated all my fishes for parasites and have even medicated the tank with antiparasites as precaution. That spot disappeared after I used antibiotics so it's not a parasite.

Also, fishes do not color up when put in tank where they do not feel safe. You need plants and hidding spot. My fishes does not color up in quarantine. I put it in my planted aquarium and they all color up except for my plumb female flag fishes. She stayed green. Also helps if there's no aggressive fishes in there. Sometimes size of tank also cause aggression. My aggressive fishes chase others in quarantine but not when put in larger aquarium. Lack of food also cause aggression. And all of those things can indirectly causes fish to not color up. There's another reason why fishes do not color up and that reason is the fish is sick.

 

[confused_aquarist]

I've doubt a lot of your claims. I've read comment in this forum and none really has been useful.

Thank you again for your input!
I do want to mention that while my tank is almost bare-bottom I use driftwoods as “substrate” and would say, I have quite few plants attached on them. I do this kind of scaping because it’s both visually pleasant and also so easy to clean, just take out driftwood and suck it up lol
So they do have hiding places, but aggression is definitely an issue. The alpha male is very violent, and every purchased/tank raised alpha male has been equally as violent.

Having said that, I think the issue of using antibiotics or not is totally up to the fish keeper. Is it the case when the fish keeper totally lacks scientific knowledge and misuses them, that antibiotic use should be stopped. With control methods you have mentioned, I would say the risk of spreading antibiotic resistance would be less than, say, a fish keeper using same antibiotic repeatedly at low dosages returning fish to main tank without recovery being complete and does the same thing a week later.

Update: the cancerous growth on the killifish has melted away, but so has its mouth!
I do think that kanaplex has helped significantly in extending its lifespan. It does look like fish tb to me.

 

[GaryE]

You remind me of people who claims that natural methods are the way to go. T

That was hard to follow linguistically, but you do make some assumptions that are far from reality there. You remind me of someone who missed the point with that circular post.

@seaweeds How do you determine what pathogen is operating in your fish, and based on that, how do you choose the correct antibiotic?

 

[confused_aquarist]

Update: The sick fish now has hollow belly and saprolegnia in gill. Very big fluff, but fell off within a day upon Malachite Green treatment. It probably came from leftover food.

Update 2/14
Still fighting strong, appetite comes and goes. Lower jaw melted completely, normal feces seems to have swim bladder issue with tail bending down and spending more time at bottom.