Spitting out flakes in the morning

[confused_aquarist]

I have fishes that spit out flakes before. I used antibiotics. They got better and start eating again. Your fishes either got sick, you used too much medication/doing something to your tank, or they saw fishes getting killed left and right and got afraid.

edit: That last bit is true. Happen a few time for me to recognize it. Fish got suspicious of you when other fishes die over and over when they are there in tank. They might even get aggressive. Probably tapped into their survival instinct. You medicated fishes enough time and when they see something odds in other fishes that they suspected of beung sick, they'll harass that fish.

I can't agree more. I think they somehow get suspicious of you when you meddle with them too much. For me, it could be me reaching into the tank way too often to clean gravel- although I only have a tiny bit of it for biofiltration reasons to prevent pathogens from growing there. This is only my 2nd time since last September to isolate a fish for medication quarantine, although I guess you're right, I did medicate fish for a total of 3 times with metronidazole after all, and they might have remembered it when a fish died last December. It was a very memorable fish for me too, my first ever fish raised from an egg. It was also 1 out of only 2 males in the entire tank of 16 killies, males have a huge presence within the hierarchy in these killies and they must have felt very sad.

 

[confused_aquarist]

TB is not common in wild caughts, but is epidemic on many farms. It is hard to stop transmission via eggs - I tried using UV light with some Melanotaenia duboulayi eggs. When they reached adulthood, in a single species tank with no contact with other fish, they died of tb.

It's everywhere and there is no cure. Fish don't necessarily develop it if exposed, but if they do, it's only a matter of time. It isn't completely antibiotic resistant, but a six month course of an antibiotic cocktail isn't going to work for a small fish.

If it's what you were dealing with, it would be the first time I have heard of it with a killie. They seem remarkably resistant to it.

Yes I definitely think that SOME are symptomatic with TB while others may be infected but still thriving, maybe never express it until very old age. TBH with the current sick one I'm still not entirely sure if TB or just protozoan not very responsive to metro- after all even with the killie that I saved with metro it took 1 week to have any effect, although it was very severe. UPDATE: The anorexic killie is still very anorexic does a lot of white stringy mucus though appetite is not zero. Very nasty pathogen

 

[confused_aquarist]

I'd question all the bits you say are true. It's not very clear, but are you suggesting they spit out (ie chew) their food when they think another fish is sick? It's certain that fish, like birds, will often attack a sick or injured shoal mate. But it's quite a leap to say they blame the fishkeeper or become suspicious. I think by nature, they are wary and if they see tankmate after tankmate (of their own species if they are shoalers) vanishing, they suspect a predator is at work. Until you get the tank set up right for the species, they'll suspect that anyway. Small fish live with fear, and one of their biggest defences is habitat. If you get the set up right, they settle in.

For the OP's annulatus, they are surface oriented. I expect they like to live under overhanging vegetation, in shaded areas safe from fishing birds. Those areas have tangles of roots they can dart into if danger appears. So they like a tank with plants to the surface, or floating plants. That water probably moves, but is calmer along the bans where the plant roots are. So they like good filtration. And there, they hunt for bugs and spiders from the plants above.

You may have solved something with antibiotics, but which ones? And what did you solve? It was more than likely coincidence. I think it's very important for aquarists to avoid using antibiotics unless they know exactly what they are treating. Antibiotics are very valuable and very overused, in the hobby and elsewhere.

Very curious. Actually I think it's very common knowledge that these killifish like floating plants.
I used to have floating plants but not anymore! The reason is, mine never stayed under the floating plants only away from them in open surface. At one point I had half of the tank surface being covered with them but they always stayed in the other half. Even while sleeping.

So I decided to remove them, because they produce mulm and also house a lot of infusoria, create shards etc. that might hurt gills since I was also having the flashing issue. I thought that mulms might not be a good idea if I was dealing with fish TB because mycobacteria have a lot of fat in cell membrane that bind to mulm which might float on the surface and get eaten. I WISH I still had the floating plants. In terms of behavior- there's apparently no change after removing the floating plants, none of them acting scared still foraging & breeding like usual.

 

[GaryE]

There's a funny old observation about fish and cover. When a fish has somewhere to hide, it doesn't need to hide. It stays in the open. It knows it has somewhere to run if there is a need, and if it sees no need, then great. Hiding takes away time when a bug could light upon the water, or a spider or ant fall in.

If the fish has nowhere to hide, then it'll sometimes get behind a filter intake or a heater. With no floating plants, if something frightened the fish, you might get very odd behaviour.

It's why a lot of stores will keep some decor in a sales tank, even if it's really inconvenient when they have to net fish. It's worth the trouble for the display.

In one of my tanks where I have a very shy, tiny Central African barb, I cut a piece of tree branch so it fits exactly between the front and back glass, half at the surface. The change in behaviour was spectacular, as a fish I had to wait and watch to see was suddenly out swimming around. Yesterday, I could see the female had dropped weight, so there are eggs in there. I've had them for a year and half since we caught them, and was having a hard time knowing when or if to move the adults to a second tank. The surface cover opened a window into their lives, and maybe the eggs will hatch. Wish me luck.

The illusion of cover has been key.

 

[confused_aquarist]

There's a funny old observation about fish and cover. When a fish has somewhere to hide, it doesn't need to hide. It stays in the open. It knows it has somewhere to run if there is a need, and if it sees no need, then great. Hiding takes away time when a bug could light upon the water, or a spider or ant fall in.

Thank you for sharing the knowledge! I simply thought, they are away from the floating plant always, so they didn't like it. I am positive that getting rid of them has done some justice to the water quality, so I will think of getting an alternative cover.

Maybe, the internal issue was triggered by removing the plants. But, this is not a bullied individual and never hides. Or it may have been due to diet. I've recently started to grow out bbs until day 3, so that they are bigger before being fed; they do find them tastier than the newly hatched ones. Although I do sterilize the cysts with bleach beforehand, but there are probably some bacteria inside the cyst that bleach can't reach, and a sudden change in microbiota composition might've triggered a new breakout from an already weak individual. After isolating in metronidazole/salt bath, the cotton mouth is also peeling away for the 1st time in a month and half. Very confusing.

 

[seaweeds]

Sorry to clarify, they think you are the cause of their dead friends so they are suspicious of things that you put in the tank. I have fishes that are not aggressive with each other in quarantine tank in beginning, after medicating for a while, they see white specks or deformities on other fishes, the aggressive fish will start harassing that fish. Basically it's like the fish is saying " you are the reason we are being medicated and dying" which remind me of people during covids is 2020-2021. Fishes do have personalities and sign of intelligence.

I have celestial pearl danio that school together and then the other dies, it started to hang out alone. The other 3 danio sticks together but that one just hang out alone on the other side of the tank. It still hang out alone. I also have licourice gourami that have the same thing happens. Only two is left. These two used to have a friend that they hang out with. One is female and one male. They now hang out alone away from each other.

You can see fear in fishes when other fishes dies. They started shaking and stick to a corner of a tank. Observed your fishes when other fishes dies, you will see it. Especially in schooling fishes.

 

[confused_aquarist]

Sorry to clarify, they think you are the cause of their dead friends so they are suspicious of things that you put in the tank.

Hmm, that is very curious. For some reasons, my killifish have never schooled, even once, even as fry they would be aggressive to each other rather than to stick with each other. I would think that in this case the aggression was not due to some being sick. I didn't experience a fry death in them, and they thrived more in fry container than when introduced into parent tank. Afterwards, they would spit flake in the morning and only eat bbs, while eating both flake and bbs in evening, just like parents. Also to clarify when I quarantine I put 1 fish per tank. They never do too well in groups esp. in empty tank with no objects, do much better when alone

 

[confused_aquarist]

Update on the anorexic juvenile- Now onto day 6 of treatment, finally toward recovery! Very active, accepting food from pipette, chasing food, etc. Started to eat and swim around on day 5 and poop is back to normal, no flagellate.

 

[confused_aquarist]

Another update, actually I don’t think this one will make it! After a few days of being a lot less lethargic, yesterday it stops eating again and now also gets a mouth wart and shimmies a lot. Flubendazole and metro were still in the tank. I did have a temperature drop of 1 Celsius overnight due to cold weather (now 21 celsius or 70 Fahrenheit)

In my tanks I have seen mouth warts fairly often in dying killies. I can only guess this is due to a virus, with mycobacteria making the fish a lot more prone to intestinal infection that causes a drop in immune which in turn leads gill flukes, viral disease, etc. that healthier individuals wouldn’t get. The juveniles are actually fine until transferred to parent tank, so I will not be making any future transfers into the parent tank. Probably, the flake spitting in the morning is very related.

 

[seaweeds]

Try antibiotics. I put my quarantine beta in my fish tank and it has a plumb throat and stomach. I took it out and use antibiotics, and put it in again after 2 week, which seems kind of working.

 

[confused_aquarist]

Try antibiotics. I put my quarantine beta in my fish tank and it has a plumb throat and stomach. I took it out and use antibiotics, and put it in again after 2 week, which seems kind of working.

I have, it's pretty much the last resort anyway, it's been in there for 3 days. Doesn't seem to be doing very much, but one thing that I absolutely regret is that I should have started on it earlier. I was again making the simpleton assumption that disease = 1 pathogen, whereas in reality it can be (and usually is) many pathogens at once. In the case of internal infection, even the microbiota itself can be the pathogen.

The reason that I hadn’t was because it didn’t look like it. I’ll try not to rely on my gut instincts too much going forward.

Though in case of TB I don’t think it would help very much anyway. Here is the picture of its snout chondroma huge bump below lower lip seems to be able to close and move its mouth now after 3 days of antibiotic

 

[GaryE]

Try antibiotics.

I get where you're coming from, but this is also why antibiotics are banned in many jurisdictions. Which antibiotic? Targeting which problem? If we use them without knowledge, we contribute to antibiotic resistance.

Looking at the photo above, that's an issue I have been told is viral (the bumps around the mouth). The fish have a problem, whether from overtreatment with antibiotics or from the supply chain.

There is a solution. Breed them and raise another generation, clean. It's an easy fish to get to reproduce. You would have to move fast, as those ones are collapsing from a whole string of issues.

 

[confused_aquarist]

I get where you're coming from, but this is also why antibiotics are banned in many jurisdictions. Which antibiotic? Targeting which problem? If we use them without knowledge, we contribute to antibiotic resistance.

Looking at the photo above, that's an issue I have been told is viral (the bumps around the mouth). The fish have a problem, whether from overtreatment with antibiotics or from the supply chain.

There is a solution. Breed them and raise another generation, clean. It's an easy fish to get to reproduce. You would have to move fast, as those ones are collapsing from a whole string of issues.

True, I've also been told by many people that mouth bumps are viral, although I have never been linked to a source. Maybe it's anecdotal? I definitely don't think this is the typical lymphocystic iridovirus. It only forms around the mouth and has occured if I remember correctly in 5 out of 8 killies that have died/are dying. I am hoping that the antibiotics would help prevent secondary infections from both external and internal source, in the miraculous chance that this fish may recover. One of them has recovered, though not entirely sure if the same pathogen, and I do remember having external antibiotics then to help with the recovery. Still lost as to why it recovered and what it recovered from.

I am thinking of starting another tank with a few of the juvenile clown killifish which I have not yet mixed with parents. I want to mix with wild-caught African lampeye, because it feels boring to have 2 identical tanks of clown killies. The only concern I have would be whether either species would become egg-bound due to not breeding from mixing species.

Edit: I also don't think viral problems would be solved by hatching eggs clean. It may. But I think that's why they've never been able to solve the iridoviral infection problem with dwarf gouramis. Life is too hard

 

[confused_aquarist]

I get where you're coming from, but this is also why antibiotics are banned in many jurisdictions. Which antibiotic? Targeting which problem? If we use them without knowledge, we contribute to antibiotic resistance.

Sorry double post since I have so many questions for you, I also wondered why you thought that the tank was collapsing, it seems now that the tank has stabilized somewhat there are 1 death per every 2 months. Would this be considered way too often, because I am hoping that the stronger individuals are already gaining some immunity and may well make it through. I don't know I don't have the experience it seems everyone else is just looking completely normal. Plump individuals don't get disease and if they do seem to recover. Not sure if whole tank recovery is likely or not.
Also some people are suggesting to me that I may be causing killifish death because I am performing water change too often (once every 3 days 50%) and stressing out fish. While I also agree with the part of it being often it's mostly to help reduce pathogen levels. Is this true, should I perform fewer water changes? I am just so lost.

 

[GaryE]

So when I had stable breeding colonies of annulatus, here is what I did. We can compare notes.

BTW - you made me think about these fish again, so yesterday I drove through a spectacular snowstorm to pick up a box of them. I got 10/10 males, which was a big disappointment. The joys of online buying...

But when I last had them, I had medium hard water (pH 7.4, GH 140ppm). I kept my group at 20 to 22 degrees, in a 40 ltr tank with Najas on the surface, and a lot of moss on the bottom. I filtered with an air driven sponge.

I changed 30% of the water every 7-10 days. I aimed for 7, but with work and kids, missed that goal regularly. Now that I'm retired I'm better organized.

I never once used any medication with them. I had them at least 3 times over 20 years in set ups like that. I would get bored, sell them all and then see them again... I like the fish. I am a big fan of all Epiplatys killies. The ones I bought yesterday are the first farm raised ones I've ever had. I used to get wild caught ones - far far healthier than farmed ones. That may be where your problem lies. But they are also often short lived for an Epiplatys, and you may be reacting to natural attrition.

I fed live artemia, freshly hatched, some grindal worms, decapsulated artemia cysts, and ground up krill. Small amounts, once daily. That regime was good for adults and fry, so when the group would grow to around 60, I would trade in 50 young, sexable adults at a fish dealer. At any given moment I would see 10 to 15 in there, but if I lifted the java moss, the numbers were always amazing.

I never gravel vacuum, though I would lift the moss every few weeks and siphon up mulm. These are tiny fish, and they feed on bacteria. Tanks that are too clean are as dangerous as filthy tanks.

So those would be my notes. I won't be breeding my new ones unless I can find some females, but that is just a question of patience and luck, beyond my control.