Si's Fishless Cycle

[PDSimon]

Ok so i got a KH/GH kit.

The KH is 3 drops in for my tap water

the GH is a bit confusing as it doesn't actually turn 'orange' when you put it in, its just like a faded yellow, but to get to the same colour as the actual 'reagent' it took ~12 drops.

So that makes 3 KH degrees (or 53.7ppm) and 12 GH degrees (or 214ppm)?

All I know is that's a lot lower than mine, I get 11 KH and 19 GH...the KH matters most I think, mine is high so stops pH shifts which is good when you want to keep it steady but a pain if you want to move it...

When people say hardness, what kind of hardness are they referring too? like on the link you shown me for yellow convict it says 5 - 20 degrees hardness?

bolivian rams are 7-14 according to that website, although I think they can tolerate lower than that

 

[kaivalagi]

Ok so i got a KH/GH kit.

The KH is 3 drops in for my tap water

the GH is a bit confusing as it doesn't actually turn 'orange' when you put it in, its just like a faded yellow, but to get to the same colour as the actual 'reagent' it took ~12 drops.

So that makes 3 KH degrees (or 53.7ppm) and 12 GH degrees (or 214ppm)?

All I know is that's a lot lower than mine, I get 11 KH and 19 GH...the KH matters most I think, mine is high so stops pH shifts which is good when you want to keep it steady but a pain if you want to move it...

When people say hardness, what kind of hardness are they referring too? like on the link you shown me for yellow convict it says 5 - 20 degrees hardness?

bolivian rams are 7-14 according to that website, although I think they can tolerate lower than that

Good question, I've always thought General hardness or GH...I suspect that's right but now I am questioning it

Just checked my log and my last KH was 9 and GH was 16, a little lower than I thought.

Found this good explanation on it all: http/www.sydneycic...um-hardness.htm


I haven't read it yet though just quickly scanned the titles in it...

 

[PDSimon]

Ok so i got a KH/GH kit.

The KH is 3 drops in for my tap water

the GH is a bit confusing as it doesn't actually turn 'orange' when you put it in, its just like a faded yellow, but to get to the same colour as the actual 'reagent' it took ~12 drops.

So that makes 3 KH degrees (or 53.7ppm) and 12 GH degrees (or 214ppm)?

All I know is that's a lot lower than mine, I get 11 KH and 19 GH...the KH matters most I think, mine is high so stops pH shifts which is good when you want to keep it steady but a pain if you want to move it...

When people say hardness, what kind of hardness are they referring too? like on the link you shown me for yellow convict it says 5 - 20 degrees hardness?

bolivian rams are 7-14 according to that website, although I think they can tolerate lower than that

Good question, I've always thought General hardness or GH...I suspect that's right but now I am questioning it

Just checked my log and my last KH was 9 and GH was 16, a little lower than I thought.

Found this good explanation on it all: http/www.sydneycic...um-hardness.htm


I haven't read it yet though just quickly scanned the titles in it...

I thought so too, well if bolivian rams want 7-14(as on aquarium life) and my general is 12, then it seems ok? KH is low at 3, which seems kind of funny i don't really get how that would relate to fish as all guides say "x hardness" (assuming its GH).

Apparently, according to that article a low KH means its more likely to be acidic. a low KH means that you have more of an unstable pH. Although mine is 53ppm kh and 50ppm or less is meant to be an indicator of acidic, but 200+ is meant to a high pH. So its not to bad.........

but also the article says my KH is good for cichlids, but my GH is good for brackish fish/lake malawi cichlids

Seems conflicting or i'm majorly missing something

 

[kaivalagi]

I thought so too, well if bolivian rams want 7-14(as on aquarium life) and my general is 12, then it seems ok? KH is low at 3, which seems kind of funny i don't really get how that would relate to fish as all guides say "x hardness" (assuming its GH).

Apparently, according to that article a low KH means its more likely to be acidic. a low KH means that you have more of an unstable pH. Although mine is 53ppm kh and 50ppm or less is meant to be an indicator of acidic, but 200+ is meant to a high pH. So its not to bad.........

but also the article says my KH is good for cichlids, but my GH is good for brackish fish/lake malawi cichlids

Seems conflicting or i'm majorly missing something

For me low KH means it's easy to shift the pH of the tank, which is good if you want to move it down for SA cichlid breeding using a buffer i.e. peat slugs/moss etc, high KH means the pH is hard to shift which is good if you want stability around what your tap gives regardless of what's in the tank...

pH and GH are what line up to the requirement, KH affects any pH change requires/not required and also has an affect on CO2 concentration levels I think...

I certainly need to do a lot more reading on this area but I have other things more important to be concerned about first, especially as I plan on keeping my water parameters the same as out of the tap

I personally think unless you are breeding fish you do not need to be too concerned with matching pH, KH and GH bang on, especially so if the fish are captive breed and not wild caught. When you see the water parameters of some tanks and what they have successfully hosted you'll notice it isn't so much of an issue. Only when you want to breed fish does it become a little more important but even then I've seen fish successfully breed outside of the documented pH ranges....

I've even read about wrong pH ranges being documented because they are based on the pH of a whole area when in the fact the fish they are for are fish which live in a specific place that doesn't match the area's expected pH...for example pH on the west coast of south america is generally high (alkaline), but on the east side towards the amazon it is low (acidic)...some geophagus (I forget which) come from the west coast but are suggested to go into low pH...

I'd be happy to be proven wrong by more established fish keepers, waterdrop/oldman47 do you have an opinion on all this? I know I am generalising but I hope I got my point across okay?

 

[PDSimon]

I thought so too, well if bolivian rams want 7-14(as on aquarium life) and my general is 12, then it seems ok? KH is low at 3, which seems kind of funny i don't really get how that would relate to fish as all guides say "x hardness" (assuming its GH).

Apparently, according to that article a low KH means its more likely to be acidic. a low KH means that you have more of an unstable pH. Although mine is 53ppm kh and 50ppm or less is meant to be an indicator of acidic, but 200+ is meant to a high pH. So its not to bad.........

but also the article says my KH is good for cichlids, but my GH is good for brackish fish/lake malawi cichlids

Seems conflicting or i'm majorly missing something

For me low KH means it's easy to shift the pH of the tank, which is good if you want to move it down for SA cichlid breeding using a buffer i.e. peat slugs/moss etc, high KH means the pH is hard to shift which is good if you want stability around what your tap gives regardless of what's in the tank...

pH and GH are what line up to the requirement, KH affects any pH change requires/not required and also has an affect on CO2 concentration levels I think...

I certainly need to do a lot more reading on this area but I have other things more important to be concerned about first, especially as I plan on keeping my water parameters the same as out of the tap

I personally think unless you are breeding fish you do not need to be too concerned with matching pH, KH and GH bang on, especially so if the fish are captive breed and not wild caught. When you see the water parameters of some tanks and what they have successfully hosted you'll notice it isn't so much of an issue. Only when you want to breed fish does it become a little more important but even then I've seen fish successfully breed outside of the documented pH ranges....

I've even read about wrong pH ranges being documented because they are based on the pH of a whole area when in the fact the fish they are for are fish which live in a specific place that doesn't match the area's expected pH...for example pH on the west coast of south america is generally high (alkaline), but on the east side towards the amazon it is low (acidic)...some geophagus (I forget which) come from the west coast but are suggested to go into low pH...

I'd be happy to be proven wrong by more established fish keepers, waterdrop/oldman47 do you have an opinion on all this? I know I am generalising but I hope I got my point across okay?

I agree, I shouldn't be too concerned, but me being me, i like to know I also would like to keep other rams/other cichlids in the future possibly so wanted to work it out. And breeding them wouldn't be a bad thing

I know Something like yellow convicts which are central america and bolivian rams which are south america are quite different requirements. Although y.convicts would do well in my water, I want a community

I'm thinking of

bolivian rams
some sort of tetra species
kuhli loaches
suckerfish, i like the ones you've got actually...I havn't researched them much so would need to check
some shrimp

pretty sure thats how things will go now. that fish store near me uses its own water, which i thought was interesting. they add their own minerals to it.

 

[kaivalagi]

You want some nice and ugly Bristlenose Plecs aye They're great to watch, hardy blighters too, they don't take any stick and boss my cory about a bit

Sounds like your LFS uses an RO unit and then adjusts the water that comes out of that?...an RO unit will basically create pH neutral water I think, which they must then adjust accordingly.

 

[PDSimon]

You want some nice and ugly Bristlenose Plecs aye They're great to watch, hardy blighters too, they don't take any stick and boss my cory about a bit

Sounds like your LFS uses an RO unit and then adjusts the water that comes out of that?...an RO unit will basically create pH neutral water I think, which they must then adjust accordingly.

Well they said they use their 'own water' and they were adding 'minerals' to it. So i got the impression they just keep reusing the same water? I'm not sure but there fish looked in the most amazing condition.

I was referring to the otos! Although I have actually started to like some of the plecs, even though i said they were ugly otos are south american too (i think) so would be good. I'm not too sure what yet

going have to sort it out soon so I can get wood/rocks to soak and boil down so they aren't to messy before the end of the cycle.

 

[kaivalagi]

Oto's are okay but I wouldn't add them until the tank has matured a little, I never see them eat food I put in, so I wonder whether they solely survive on algae...

I guess I'll find out soon as there isn't much algae in my new tank yet, just a very small amount on the plants I put in from the old tank

They don't do much though, pretty boring fish to be honest...a BN plec on the other hand

 

[PDSimon]

Oto's are okay but I wouldn't add them until the tank has matured a little, I never see them eat food I put in, so I wonder whether they solely survive on algae...

I guess I'll find out soon as there isn't much algae in my new tank yet, just a very small amount on the plants I put in from the old tank

They don't do much though, pretty boring fish to be honest...a BN plec on the other hand

Good to know, cheers if I got the bamboo shrimp, they're really good at keeping clean water so who knows

 

[PDSimon]

When under a nitrike spike, does it cause nitrates to hault?

You'd have thought the nitrates would be produced quite rapidly at this point? but they're not changing much at all!

 

[waterdrop]

Nitrate results are generally unreliable during a fishless cycle but get somewhat more reliable once a tank is running normally. In particular, when nitrites are high it can cause the nitrate test to give falsly high or generally unreliable results. It probably should stop us from trusting NO3 tests during cycling but usually we can't resist, hoping to get some occasional confirmation that more nitrates are being produced towards the end of the process.

I'm not sure you're performing the GH test correctly. The most important thing is to have good light, holding the test water up near it and knowing the two color types that are supposed to be involved in the test. Assuming your result is going to be higher than one or two degrees, you watch that first color and then on the very first drop where you see any kind of color change (in the direction of the other color) then that's it, the count stops. You do not keep putting drops in trying to match some color, that would result in way too high a test result. (Not being home to check my own tests, I can't remember the colors involved but if you let me know I can include them in the explanation.) We like to more or less always talk in degrees, not ppm. The drop/degree 1:1 coorespondance makes it nice.

The hardness article was nice. I read it through and it stacks up pretty much with other ones I know are good. The only problem I have with it is that (probably since its written by a cichlid person, lol) it adopts a somewhat cavalier attitude about changing mineral content (and usually pH along with it) and this is a big mistake for beginners I feel. Going "off baseline" is a big deal in the hobby and definately not a good place for beginners to be I feel. Its sometimes a bitter pill to swallow but a beginner is much better off having their stocking plan dictated somewhat by the chance happening of what their water authority is giving them through the pipes, ugh! Its not that it can't be done of course, with extreme dedication and attention its quite doable. But its another of those things I like to espouse of the beginner getting a better starting place in the hobby if they directly experience 1 or 2 years of a straightforward plain-jane beginner tank of some sort, otherwise you never quite have the feel of what the heck it is that you're "varying" away from.

So all things are not equal in the "off baseline" world either. Going "up" is much, much easier than going "down." (But, again, NEITHER should be done, if at all possible.) Going "up" involves adding crushed coral in a mesh bag in one of the filter trays. One starts with a small pile in the palm but not a full palmfull. It must be cleaned periodically or the bacteria and debris will cover it such that it won't do its slow, slow dissolving trick. Going "down" is a whole 'nother ballgame. It usually involves first the purchase of a house RO system and installation into the house plumbing, typically under a sink. If you are charged for water it can also cost you a fortune in water bills if you are going to do it in a big tank. It takes something like 4 parts waste water to get 1 part de-mineralized water from the reverse osmosis (RO) membrane (it IS amazing though, as a technology, as it takes virtually -everything- out of the water, leaving it with more or less no minerals at all.) Then, based on your knowledge as a species specialist (sorry, I'm probably exaggerating, lol) you have to decide how much -regular tap water- to combine it with to end up with the TDS (GH) that you want ('cause GH, to answer another bit of a question you guys had, is the name of the game with respect to matching what the species want. KH, on the other hand, is the working tool that's more helpful when cycling, as when it drops below 4 degrees you know you are getting closer to a possible pH crash.

Now in the world of tiny tanks there's room for those who might choose to -buy- their RO water from the LFS or such, as they may be able to combine it out and make it last a while. I remember one member that came through the beginners section that did that. But most people who decide to keep fish that need a much lower hardness than their given source water will have to go through the RO machine thing. Going with RO plus carefully measured re-mineraliztion (usually via ratioed in tap water) is, however, a good deal more consistent and reliable than attempting things like Peat (peatmoss) filtration because with that you're at the mercy of the peat product sources and they can change (and do change) on you. Still, there is a lively world of Discus and Cichlid hobbyists out there doing this sort of stuff and one of both of you may must be interested in this enough to try entering that hobby. It, somewhat like the planted tank hobby, is not so drastically off from the mainstream hobby that there isn't a fair amount of overlap here in the forum.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[PDSimon]

The GH tester when added to water makes it go orange. You keep adding it until it goes green. However..it doesn't go orange at the start it goes a faded yellow colour! and then slowly changes from a bland yellow to a very bland green over the course of ~12 drops.

I know what you mean though, with the KH kit, it was almost instant when it completely changed colour after the third droplet was added.

Unfortunately RO kits are much to expensive for me.

12GH isn't strange though? I just thought 3KH and 12 GH compared might be odd.

 

[waterdrop]

No, not strange. GH and KH can be completely different from each other. But your GH testing process still sounds strange. It should behave in a similar fashion to the KH with a sudden change or a single drop of "transitional" color and then the final color on the last drop. At least this is the way I've always experienced it. But I guess there could be some other water chemistry that could make it behave differently!

~~waterdrop~~

 

[PDSimon]

I shall test a third time but I'm not sure. Apparently if the colours difficult to read, your meant to look down the testtube to see what colour it is.

 

[kaivalagi]

Make sure with each drop added you give the vial a good shake to see if the colour changes, it shouldn't be keep still whilst adding drops one after the other, you need to spread the concentration of the chemicals throughout the water as the rating is based on testing a full 5ml or whatever for your tests.

Saying that I am sure you do this anyway, as it will be clearly stated in the instructions

Also just to re-iterate you are looking for the transition from one colour to another, not the colour matching a card...orange to green shouldn't be too tricky to see happen, they are contrasting colours


I'm off to get my 4 x Tapajos shortly as well as some new plants probably...I have just moved some old media (used since I first started the hobby in October) and 4 peppered cory from the main tank into the 125L one, fingers crossed there is no mini-cycle...I'll be testing it everyday until I am comfortable that the bacteria is doing it's bit. If I have to I will be doing twice-daily water changes to get over any bacteria issues and I'll just move the tapajos into the main tank and hope there is no ich issues etc. Should be okay but as this is the first time I've done this I am a little weary

Cheers