Hi Willis, im glad you took the time to ask me these questions and hope I can answer them in a good, honest way.
Pets at home has to be responsible for thousands if not hundreds of thousands (possibly millions) of common plecs, bala sharks, clown loaches, gibbiceps, black ghost knife fish, oscars, parrot fish, severums, goldfish (common and fancy) being pumped into our hobby, into homes that are just not suitable often at all I have seen them selling goldfish to tiny tanks, they might think they have taken the moral high ground by saying no fish in unfiltered tanks but I remember my first tank was from them and that was 5 goldfish in a 10 gallon tank, see what Im saying?
Out of the above listed my particular store sells common Pleco's, Fancy and Common Godlfish & finally Clown Loaches. I can tell you 9 times out of 10, the fish we sell are Goldfish normally to new hobbyists. I agree with you on the size issue which differs from person to person, 5 in a 10 gallon is ridiculous. As a matter of fact 1 in a 10 gallon is not ideal, but people (especially new to the hobby) are not willing to spend money on a tank suitable for a (eg.) single tail goldfish which are suitable for ponds or a 30/40 gal+. You should also know Goldfish can be kept in a 20 gallon and live for years and years, so when you hear like a 30 gallon minimum, this is not true at all. Another thing I'd like to say on the size issue is that, if ever a Pleco is brought back to the store because it has outgrown its tank, we do not put it on sale we staff either take it home ourselves (well the ones who keep fish) or we arrange for an LFS's near us to take it from us as they have the facilites to keep it.
Yes, a single small-type fancy goldfish can live in a 20 gallon tank as long as it is 36"/3' long and has excellent filtration. If I ever saw this as the minimum standard for goldfish in any pet shop I would be very impressed. In the store I worked at 10 litres was the minimum size for a baby goldfish. The training literature told us to ensure customers were aware of the adult size of the fish and the need for a maximum stocking of 0.5 cm per litre (which would put a 6 inch goldfish in something like a 70 litre tank). However, in practice 90% of colleages didn't inform the new owners of this need or of the size of the fish. This is not uncommon in P@H stores. I've asked many P@H colleages from many different stores about goldfish and I think only a couple told me how big they would get and only one person tried to discourage me from buying one unless I could provide at least 15-20 gallons of water. In all cases the colleages were bound by store policy and informal company policy to sell me the fish as long as I had a filtered tank of a size that was dictated by the store manager and area manager (usually between 5 and 15 litres).
It doesn't matter whether customers are informed of the adult size of the fish - the vast majority of people buying goldfish are people who want a cheap, easy pet for their child and 90% of customers would not even consider upgrading the tank in the future, let alone buying a decent tank to start with. At best a decent colleage can put someone off buying a goldfish at all and direct them towards a tropical micro-community or betta splendens for their small tank.
As for the plecs - it simply is not good enough to say "we rehome any plecs that outgrow their tank". Aside for the small number of cases when a customer cold bloodely lies about how big their tank is, plecs should not be sold to tanks that are too small in the first place! Tell a manager (assistant/deputy/store/area/district) that you refuse to sell a common or sailfin plec to a tank less than 100 gallons and you'll be laughed at. I was.
In the end, most fish will be sold into any tank as long as basic needs such as a filter and superficially clean water are met and the tank is over about 150-200 litres. The excuse I always heard was "yes, it will get to 1-3 foot long but just inform the customer and make sure he is willing to consider a bigger tank in the future". Now, official company policy is to maintain a maximum stocking level of 0.5 cm/litre for goldfish and 1 cm/litre for temperate/tropical fish, taking into account adult size. However, this is verbally overwritten by all levels of management as long as the tank isn't fully stocked when the person comes to buy fish (ignoring growing room) and as long as any large fish are promised an upgrade at some point in the future. This is not responsible - this is a lot of hot air to cover the butts of those who work at the store so if someone comes in and says "how dare you sell me this fish when you knew it would get to big" the manager can say "we are very sorry, you should have been informed of the adult size of the fish when you purchased it". WRONG. They should have been refused the sale unless they had a life-tank for the fish.
So first question is, why do pets at home stock all the mentioned fish in such massive numbers and then sell them to often any tank with water in?
Business. Not to be rude, but yeah. I have my own limits as to what to sell to what size tank, and i'll say that I have never sold a Common Pleco to anyone. You wouldn't believe how easy it is to get someones attention on another fish that is more suitable for their tank eg. an Oto instead of a Common Pleco or a Honey Gourami instead of a Golden Gourami.
Business? No excuse. It isn't a human right or necessity to sell animals as pets and as such people should only enter the business if they can provide the best care for the animals. The need to get customers, make money or whatever is no excuse for violating the basic rights of an animal. But I do agree that where possible, a more suitable alternative to a larger/more aggressive fish should be found. That's just common sense.
I'm interested in what your limits are.
Do your stores order lists have any smaller species of plec listed?
My store is not a big fish store, but we do stock Oto's and Butterfly Pleco's (which are actually hillstream loaches, which i have asked my manager to change the label on, but thats another point)
Are otos always sold into schools of 6? Are hillstream loaches only sold into very cool tanks that have high water flow to emulate a river? I know that in my store the only training we recieved in hillstream loaches was the non-specific basics in the Step books and what was on the price tag. The vast majority of hillstream loaches were sold as algae eaters into small, room temperature tanks full of variatus platies, goldfish and other coldwater or temperate fish. When I was overheard telling a customer they needed very good water flow I was told to stop being so technical and just sell the fish. Again, not a company issue but the company doesn't provide species specific training so this kind of thing is left at the discretion of store managers.
So that said, the cycling advice that pets at home offers is just rubbish its total nonsense, knowing how you contribute to the forum (james_fish) I would trust your advice would be along the same lines as we give out here ie a controlled fish in cycle or a fishless cycle but the majority of pets at home advice on the cycle is - put a few flakes in your tank with your filter on and this will start your cycle and by the end of the week it will be safe to put fish in when in reality no its not youve still got an other 4 or 5 weeks to go until there is no nitrite or ammonia in the water.
The cycling is an issue definately. Do you think, Willis, that someone looking at keeping fish is going to buy a brand new tank get all excited and then have to wait 1/2 months for a tank to cycle? Or do you think they will wait 7 days to add there new fish? Controlled fish in are recommended, 5 danio's wait 3/4 weeks add your next batch. Feel free to come in for a free water test every weekend.
I don't care if a customer doesn't want to wait to cycle a tank. However, if a safe fish-in cycle was the standard recommendation I would be quite happy. A fish-in cycle should be conducted with a small number of hardier fish. However, for most people this just means throwing some danios in for a week or so and getting their water tested in a week when they come back for more fish. Aside from the fact that danios need the same care as any other fish and are not suitable for small tanks due to their adult size and high energy levels, I never hear the advice you claim to give which is wait 3/4 weeks. In fact, the fish bags have "wait at least 1 week" printed on them. In most cases, the only advice given is to wait a week or two and then get their water tested. This is not sufficient! For a fish-in cycle you ideally need to test daily and do very large water changes every time the ammonia/nitrite is elevated, even if this means changing water twice a day! I got threatened by the assistant manager when I was overheard telling a customer this! The assistant manager, aquatics manager and store manager all ganged up on me and said "we know you mean well but we all need to give the same advice to customers and the advice you must give is to do one extra water change after 3 days and wait a week for more fish". Again, not a company issue but there is almost no training given on safe levels of ammonia/nitrite and how many extra water changes are needed during a fish-in cycle. The rule seems to be "keep it simple for the customer" even if that means harming the fish!
The situation you highlighted with the common plecs just are not viable, the fact that you are in that situation ie having to ship off fish that your store massively miss sold to other fish shops to deal with the problem. It goes back to what I was saying RESPONSIBILITY if that is the situation then you proved via your argument that your shop completely lacks it.
Okay Wills, so what's your idea of RESPONSIBILITY? Would you rather the pleco got re-sold and get thrown back into the cylce of being sold to a small tank? Please, you just hate on Pets at Home. Could you give me a suitable alternative of what to do with a Pleco that has outgrown it's tank and is to big for ours?
The point is not that you should just re-sell the poor fish but that you shouldn't sell them in the first place if they can't be looked after! Fish should only be brought back into the store if there are unforseen problems, such as a damaged tank, or an owner that needs to get rid of fish as they are moving or something or because they lied in the first place. Fish should not be seen back in the shop otherwise as they shouldn't be miss-sold. Of course, if you do get a fish back you should care for it as best you can but Wills' point was that this should very rarely have to happen and frankly, it happens all the time! Not to mention the number of fish that are miss-sold and end up in a bad tank forever or die. A friend of mine has a 12" silver shark in a 36" tank because of P@H. It's not dead and she's not returned it but it is a very unhappy fish that is flightly, stressed and prone to getting sick.
The goldfish answer you gave as well, the way people "on the internet" keep goldfish is the humane way at the end of the day you would not keep a group of stocky 6 inch tropical fish like lets say firemouths (ignoring the obvious aggression issues) its just not a humane way to keep them. Of course you can cram 6 goldfish into a 20 gallon tank but the standard of life is going to be shocking.
I never said anything about 6 goldfish, I was referring to one or even a pair of Goldfish.
Fair point, but see my earlier point. What is the minimum tank size your store accepts for goldfish and what is your personal sales minimum? Are you allowed to break store policy if you disagree with it?
And I have accepted you brushing off the cycling thing as business because its what you always hear but yeah your right no one would do it but surely with a pet shop as massive as pets at home could they not run a filter system with no fish feed it with ammonia and sell cuttings of their sponges to customers for X amount of money. I dont know how viable it is but its an idea off the top of my head.
If you ask for a mature sponge at your local, i'd be surprised they would turn you away. I did it wayyyyyy before I worked for Pets.
There is a difference between someone having enough knowledge to ask for one and them being recommended/sold/given away with every new filter sold.
As a big business I come back to the point of saying responsibility, if people will not buy a tank and wait for filter to mature sell them a mature filter.
You find a Fish store (any fish store whatsoever) that does this, and i'll be very surprised.
Again, not the point. With animal lives on the line "other stores don't do that" or "it costs to much" should not be an issue and if it is, then they shouldn't be in the pet business at all. Of course a mature filter is quite a tall order but a dedicated sump tank that is fed with ammonia and from which sponges are given away or sold isn't too much to ask and this doesn't happen. At best someone has to ask directly and a colleage has to cut up a sump sponge from one of the bays to provide this. This obviously requires the colleage to have enough knowledge to suggest this or the customer to have enough knowledge to ask. Frankly, neither happens that often.
I didnt ask about your thoughts on store bought bottles of filter supliments. I mean that in its self is a shocking trading standards issue but it would be hard to prove unless the investigator had an exceptional knowledge of fish and tanks etc.
And, I didn't give you my thoughts on store bought bottles of filter supliments. Again, you find a store that DOES NOT sell these, i'll be exceptionally surprised. That's not just a Pets At Home thing, its a hobby thing.
This is true. However, P@H recommends them as suitable filter aids and gives an inaccurate impression as to how effective they are. In fact, the Step books even remind colleages to recommend them. That isn't about fish care - that's about money and making the customer
feel cared for. It's one thing to stock something in case someone wants it and another thing to be trained to tell customers these are invaluable cycling aids. However, minor issue.
I disagree with you Wills. Pets At Home sell reptiles, rabbits, hamsters, other small animals & fish. We take pride in what we do. You might think you know how our business runs, but you don't. Its not about the selling, its about the smile on the childs face when he's finally been allowed that rabbit he's always wanted. THAT is whats its all about. You would not believe the lenghts our business goes for our animals and fish, truly you wouldn't.
If you don't like the water, don't go swimming.
James.
Wills may only have indirect experience of the
inside scoop on P@H but I've been there. I know how it runs and I know what the breeders and pet suppliers we work with are like and the kind of veterinary care the animals recieve. I also know that in most stores reptiles are not even taken to the vet, not even to be put down if that is the humane thing to do. I know that we had to stop selling birds for welfare reasons and that the animals are sold when very young and that some of the supplies we sell are nothing short of shocking (hello, Cricetti Nine for a hamster? Spongebob tank for a goldfish?). We're told "Pets before profit" but then are poorly trained and given appauling and restrictive policies to work with. If we kick up a fuss, we're told to shut up or get out. P@H does nothing for the pet world other than supply the demand people have. Forums and books have done a million times more for pet care than any pet shop will, let alone P@H.
Now, I completely appreciate that in some stores the staff are excellent and take time to do extra research, advise customers fully of how to safely cycle a tank and are very careful when considering stocking and fish compatability. However, my point still stands that P@H have a duty to ensure fish (well, all pets) go to an excellent home and that the staff are trained to acomplish this. Face the facts - the training we get, at least at the Step 1 level which is all that is required to sell fish, is not up to scratch and staff should not have to do their own research (most don't, anyway). Basic welfare decisions should be enshrined in policy and not left up to managers. Plus, most of the time independent research is ignored or rejected by managers as being too technical, false or not in line with "policy". The Step books even say to be careful because there are a lot of opinions on pet care and that we should follow P@H policy, which is something repeated over and over by managers if there is a problem, even when I was trying to show them scientific evidence that "policy" or their "facts" were wrong. Heck, my aquatics manager even told me that ammonia was a bacteria.
Sorry James, this isn't personal. I just don't understand how people can defend P@H and I really want to understand your position. I'd say the same things about any other pet shop that I didn't feel cared sufficiently for the animals.
